[MD] Science: Medicine?

[MarshaV]

FYI

Drug Maker to Report Fees to Doctors

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/health/policy/25drug.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin









.
.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

[gav]

it surprises me that people who understand that organic farming is better than conventional farming don't get the same point in relation to their own health. chemicals are bad for the environment and they are bad for us...industrial medicine, like industrial agriculture is an anachronism. the concept of biodiversity and its integral relation to ecosystem health is a metaphor that can be applied to our own health - biologically, socially and intellectually.

biologically in the recognition that we are an ecology of cells and microrganisms. health is a function of the dynamic balance of microrganisms within our guts which optimise nutrition and elimination. drugs, legal and illegal, damage the integrity of this fundamental level.

socially we are a product of the matrix of social relations that mediate our lives. if there is an imbalance - if for instance a significant number of these interrelations are inauthentic/oppressive, we see disharmony develop in the individual at an emotional level which if unchecked manifests eventually as physical illness

intellectually we are an ecology of ideas; if these ideas are coherent, if they interrelate logically, a map of reality results that allows us to understand ourselves and the world well, and consequently we feel in control of our lives. if these ideas are incoherent, if they lack a connecting underlying framework or principle (ie a metaphysics), then these ideas jostle for supremacy and we feel a lack or separation from reality prime - cos our map is incomplete, incoherent: it confuses rather than clarifies....we feel lost, disconnected....schizo-affective.

holism. the organism is more than the linear sum of its parts. it is a web of interconnections in which the *interconnections* - the dynamic element - are primary. separation and isolation, of elements of our body (eg the germ theory of disease), in the context of an atomised society, and in the context of disparate and discrete paradigms of thought, all reduce the number and vitality of these interconnections. the chi don't flow...we are all dammed rivers.

bye



Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail

[Krimel]

[gav]
it surprises me that people who understand that organic farming is better
than conventional farming don't get the same point in relation to their own
health. chemicals are bad for the environment and they are bad for
us...industrial medicine, like industrial agriculture is an anachronism. the
concept of biodiversity and its integral relation to ecosystem health is a
metaphor that can be applied to our own health - biologically, socially and
intellectually.

[Krimel]
Interestingly I attended a lecture last week on the topic of can science
help us produce enough food to feed a starving world? The speaker concluded
that scientifically speaking the answer was yes but from a political
perspective probably not. With regards to organic farming he said there were
two kinds of organic farmers: those in the west who market their products to
na?ve affluent westerns and farmers in the third world who can't produce
enough food to feed their children.

As far as chemical in the environment are concerned: check it out, the
environment is essential composed of nothing but chemicals. Every thing we
eat is chemicals...

[MarshaV]

>
>[Krimel]
>Interestingly I attended a lecture last week on the topic of can science
>help us produce enough food to feed a starving world? The speaker concluded
>that scientifically speaking the answer was yes but from a political
>perspective probably not. With regards to organic farming he said there were
>two kinds of organic farmers: those in the west who market their products to
>na?ve affluent westerns and farmers in the third world who can't produce
>enough food to feed their children.
>
>As far as chemical in the environment are concerned: check it out, the
>environment is essential composed of nothing but chemicals. Every thing we
>eat is chemicals...
>
And what these chemical moves...

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=42468





.
.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Krimel]
Interestingly I attended a lecture last week on the topic of can
science help us produce enough food to feed a starving world?

[Arlo]
I've long been a supporter (and member) of the CSA Farming
initiatives. But even within the movement there is the (often
unspoken) realization that should tomorrow the entire nation stand up
and demand local, organic foods, there is simply no way to meet that
demand. The total amount of wheat, corn, meat, produce consumed by
our nation alone surpasses the ability for an entirely organic
farming practice to meet. The only way such a target can be reached
is if current amounts of consumption drop, if more grain can be
diverted from livestock (transitioning to vegetarianism) and the
eating habits of the population shift accordingly. So the
"local-organic" component must include the recognition that
consumption patterns much change as well, it can't be "business as
usual" but with organic produce. (As organic farming becomes more
established and farming practices refined, perhaps a greater output
can be expected, but even the most farseeing in the movement would
never say that in terms of raw output organic farming could ever
match non-organic farming).

The other conundrum you mention is worth considering more. One of the
agri-business industries announced a few years back that it had
sythesized a strain of rice capable of growing in areas of Africa
where rice would not normally group. This strain of rice is
undoubtably a strong GMO, spliced with animal somethingoroether. But
it could potentially bring relief to famine ridden areas of Africa. I
should also mention it was engineered not to reproduce, so that
African farmers have to rely on a supplier each year for their seed.
Now, what is the ethical thing to do? Supply the rice? Not? Is this
an example of good science? Bad science? Good science but bad
business? Hardcore organic publications decry this, aid organizations
see anything as better than nothing, those who condemn the practices
of agri-business see this as exploitative. Meanwhile, people are
starving. What do we do? Deliver a GMO rice that ties farmer to
supplier? Deliver it for now with an eye towards the future?

Underlying this is the question, do we already produce enough food to
feed a starving world? But do we squander this on the luxories of
livestock and Doritos in the affluent world? Do warlords in famine
ridden areas stockpile aid and food for their own militant goals
while the populations we are trying to help continue to starve?

Just some thoughts...

[Krimel]

Arlo,

You highlight at least one problem that extends well beyond the issue at
hand. Science gives us the tools to do these things but it is not science
that determines what gets done. Sure we CAN create new species that are more
productive but don't reproduce. But it is economic and political interests
that demand that they are done. It was the Supreme Court in a horrible
decision that allowed the patenting of life forms. I find both concepts
morally abhorrent as I suspect do many in the scientific community but it is
lawyers, and politicians who enable the system.

I know you and many others are attracted to organic produce but I have to
say there is little or no evidence that the products of the "Green
Revolution" are less nutritious, less tasty or in the least bit harmful. One
of the points made in the lecture was that Rachel Carson's Silent Spring was
a watershed book in that before it no one thought fertilizers and pesticides
were bad. After it lots of people did. While Carson pointed to particular
problems with a particular pesticide it is something of a stretch to extend
that to ALL chemical used in agriculture. He also mentioned Rodale Press as
something of a one man crusade to advocate a "natural" lifestyle based more
on its emotional appeal than on any evidence that an "unnatural" lifestyle
is harmful.

Back to politics, the speaker I heard has been involved in teaching farming
practices to farmers in underdeveloped countries and he was very clear that
in many of the worse hit countries, it is the leaders of the country who are
preventing resources from reaching the populations. It is not just U.S.
politics, morality and capitalism that are problematic.

He also talked about genmod foods which seems to be a much bigger issue in
Europe than in the U.S. but again there is no evidence that genmods food are
not healthy for us. He said that McDonald's has been using genmod potatoes
in their French fries for years. I suspect this does not help make the case
that genmod foods are "healthy" after all it is McDonald's food, but there
is no reason to think they are bad just because they aren't "natural". In
fact almost everything we eat in the modern world has been genetically
modified in some ways for centuries.

Krimel
----------------------------------------------------

[Krimel]
Interestingly I attended a lecture last week on the topic of can
science help us produce enough food to feed a starving world?

[Arlo]
I've long been a supporter (and member) of the CSA Farming
initiatives. But even within the movement there is the (often
unspoken) realization that should tomorrow the entire nation stand up
and demand local, organic foods, there is simply no way to meet that
demand. The total amount of wheat, corn, meat, produce consumed by
our nation alone surpasses the ability for an entirely organic
farming practice to meet. The only way such a target can be reached
is if current amounts of consumption drop, if more grain can be
diverted from livestock (transitioning to vegetarianism) and the
eating habits of the population shift accordingly. So the
"local-organic" component must include the recognition that
consumption patterns much change as well, it can't be "business as
usual" but with organic produce. (As organic farming becomes more
established and farming practices refined, perhaps a greater output
can be expected, but even the most farseeing in the movement would
never say that in terms of raw output organic farming could ever
match non-organic farming).

The other conundrum you mention is worth considering more. One of the
agri-business industries announced a few years back that it had
sythesized a strain of rice capable of growing in areas of Africa
where rice would not normally group. This strain of rice is
undoubtably a strong GMO, spliced with animal somethingoroether. But
it could potentially bring relief to famine ridden areas of Africa. I
should also mention it was engineered not to reproduce, so that
African farmers have to rely on a supplier each year for their seed.
Now, what is the ethical thing to do? Supply the rice? Not? Is this
an example of good science? Bad science? Good science but bad
business? Hardcore organic publications decry this, aid organizations
see anything as better than nothing, those who condemn the practices
of agri-business see this as exploitative. Meanwhile, people are
starving. What do we do? Deliver a GMO rice that ties farmer to
supplier? Deliver it for now with an eye towards the future?

Underlying this is the question, do we already produce enough food to
feed a starving world? But do we squander this on the luxories of
livestock and Doritos in the affluent world? Do warlords in famine
ridden areas stockpile aid and food for their own militant goals
while the populations we are trying to help continue to starve?

Just some thoughts...



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[Arlo Bensinger]

[Krimel]
I know you and many others are attracted to organic produce but I
have to say there is little or no evidence that the products of the
"Green Revolution" are less nutritious, less tasty or in the least bit harmful.

[Arlo]
Well, I won't refer to any "studies" here, but I will say that my own
experience with tomatoes has been that those I grow or get from our
CSA are exponentially more tasty than those red tennis balls that
grocery stores call "tomatoes". Indeed, it is primarily taste that
keeps me in our CSA. If I didn't think the produce tasted so much
better, I wouldn't eat it. That said, it doesn't need to be CSA
foods, the local corn we get from Amish farmers (who are mostly
organic, if not certified so) if far superior in taste to what passes
for corn in the stores. And here's a challenge. Go out and buy a
carton of Organic Valley milk (any variety), and a carton of whatever
the big name dairy milk is in your area. Taste them side by side. If
you can honestly tell me that the Organic Valley milk is not better
(if not greatly better), I'd be very surprised.

What studies I have seen on nutrition talk more about the gradual
loss of vitamin and nutrient content as produce is packed and
shipped. This makes the case for local foods when possible. A head of
broccoli picked this morning contains more nutrients than broccoli
picked days ago, packed and shipped, or frozen and stored for weeks.

With regards to chemical farming, pesticides and other additives, I
can only say that even if you could show me that consuming tomatoes
sprayed with pesticides was "not harmful", the sum total of these
chemicals being introduced into the environment gives me sufficient
pause. That trace elements of pesticides (or other chemical
fertilizers) make their way into our meat, eggs, and even our
drinking water is just something I can see no good in, especially
over a long haul or lifetime.

And finally, regarding GMOs, I think even the most ardent opponents
to GMOs recognize a difference between longterm breeding of a plant
for particular traits (which was done unconsciously by our early
socializing ancestors- see Guns, Germs and Steel for example) and the
splicing of genes from fish our animals into plants. If a strain of
rice could be cultivated that contains 15% more vitamin B, for
example, I doubt many would object. But, to get that from splicing
fish genes into the rice is a price too high for many (myself
included). Of course, I speak from a nation of privilege, with
abundant food and ample choice. If I lived in a famine-laden African
country, I wonder if I'd be so concerned about whether or not my rice
contained fish genes.

This ties in to the Agribusiness discussion. Modifying food so that
the farmer becomes dependent on the seed supplier has nothing to do
with vitamins, pesticides or fish genes. It is a horrible, and
accepted, economic practice that seeks to maximize profit at all
cost. To be fair, the business often says that the expense of
research (in developing said genetically altered rice) can only be
offset by ensuring income to the business year after year. Just one
more reason for me to distance myself from the GMO practice, if not
for health or ethics, then because supporting it often entails ipso
facto support of a business model I find deplorable. But again, here
I sit eating a salad stuffed with olives, cucumbers and feta cheese,
that I could buy by simply walking across the street. Were I to live
in a famine zone, perhaps my concern about economic farming models
would give way to "just give me some damn food!"

[Krimel]

[Krimel]
I know you and many others are attracted to organic produce but I
have to say there is little or no evidence that the products of the
"Green Revolution" are less nutritious, less tasty or in the least bit
harmful.

[Arlo]
Well, I won't refer to any "studies" here, but I will say that my own
experience with tomatoes has been that those I grow or get from our
CSA are exponentially more tasty than those red tennis balls that
grocery stores call "tomatoes". Indeed, it is primarily taste that
keeps me in our CSA. If I didn't think the produce tasted so much
better, I wouldn't eat it. That said, it doesn't need to be CSA
foods, the local corn we get from Amish farmers (who are mostly
organic, if not certified so) if far superior in taste to what passes
for corn in the stores. And here's a challenge. Go out and buy a
carton of Organic Valley milk (any variety), and a carton of whatever
the big name dairy milk is in your area. Taste them side by side. If
you can honestly tell me that the Organic Valley milk is not better
(if not greatly better), I'd be very surprised.

[Krimel]
My father-in-law loves to tend a garden and I admit that his squash and
beans are especially tasty but I don't see any difference but price between
the produce in the "organic" section of my grocery store and the regular
factory farmed produce. It is really just a matter of being too lazy to go
to the farmer's market, I suppose but I like my grocery store.

[Arlo]
What studies I have seen on nutrition talk more about the gradual
loss of vitamin and nutrient content as produce is packed and
shipped. This makes the case for local foods when possible. A head of
broccoli picked this morning contains more nutrients than broccoli
picked days ago, packed and shipped, or frozen and stored for weeks.

[Krimel]
Sure, I suspect you are right but you nailed it below. Arguing the relative
merits of growing technique is a luxury afforded only to those living in
affluent countries.

[Arlo]
With regards to chemical farming, pesticides and other additives, I
can only say that even if you could show me that consuming tomatoes
sprayed with pesticides was "not harmful", the sum total of these
chemicals being introduced into the environment gives me sufficient
pause. That trace elements of pesticides (or other chemical
fertilizers) make their way into our meat, eggs, and even our
drinking water is just something I can see no good in, especially
over a long haul or lifetime.

[Krimel]
I agree that argument has face validity and I rather assumed that it was at
least likely. The lecture really just forced me to question the assumption
and when I think about it (as opposed to actually looking it up) I know of
no evidence to suggest that these traces actually have any adverse effects.

[Arlo]
And finally, regarding GMOs, I think even the most ardent opponents
to GMOs recognize a difference between longterm breeding of a plant
for particular traits (which was done unconsciously by our early
socializing ancestors- see Guns, Germs and Steel for example) and the
splicing of genes from fish our animals into plants. If a strain of
rice could be cultivated that contains 15% more vitamin B, for
example, I doubt many would object. But, to get that from splicing
fish genes into the rice is a price too high for many (myself
included). Of course, I speak from a nation of privilege, with
abundant food and ample choice. If I lived in a famine-laden African
country, I wonder if I'd be so concerned about whether or not my rice
contained fish genes.

[Krimel]
I suspect that given the choice between products labeled "natural" or "GMO"
I too would grab the "natural" product. But I do question whether this is
just conditioning or whether it really is sensible. After all what
difference does it make whether it takes 100 years or two weeks to
genetically modify something? And really what does "natural" mean as it
related to food packaging?

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Krimel]
And really what does "natural" mean as it related to food packaging?

[Arlo]
For me it means no artifical colors, dyes, or flavors. If the
producer wants the food to have a banana flavor, it should get that
from bananas, not from Lythoriumxa Sulfnate #7 (made that one up). If
a juice turns out off-red from the fruit juices it contains, so be
it, I don't need Yellow Dye #32 (good chance that one is real) to
give it a "brighter" color. Personally, I don't buy any packaged food
that contains preservatives. I'll have enough of that in me after I die.

I think this also raises another issue, and that is the junk that
passes for "food" in the first place. Its one thing to discuss the
relative health merits of organic bananas versus non-organic bananas,
or the merits between non-gmo bananas and bananas spliced with squid
genes, and maybe this makes me a curmudgeony fellow at heart, but
daggum it, when I buy something called "juice" it had better be
"juice". Not 95% water, 4.9% high fructose corn syrup, and a .1%
split between some colored dye and an artificial apple flavoring.
Therein I think lies our biggest health-related problem. That
doctor-dude from CNN, I saw him asked once what the biggest
health-risk food was in the typical American diet. He said "soda".
Reason being it has no nutritional value, it nothing but high
fructose syrups, chemicals and dyes. And yet we drink it by the
GALLONS. We consume it in huge Big Gulp cups that contain something
like 32 individual servings. Put down those Cheeze-Its and read the
ingredients. There is no actual food in there at all. And it is these
foods we consume in huge quantities. You say there is no evidence of
a health-risk, and yet I look around at the high-rates of intestinal
cancers and adult-onset diabetes and I can't help but think there is
a relation there. And even if there wasn't, even if the risk was so
low to my health from drinking dyed-blue high fructose corn syrup, I
would think the fact that drinking real juice is actually good for
you would make me choose the latter over the former every time. If I
want "cheese crackers", I'll open up some natural crackers (made with
only wheat, yeast, etc.) and cut a block of natural cheddar (aged
milk, no fake colors or flavors).

Ask yourself this. If you had all those individual ingredients, dyes,
chemicals, additives, corn syrups, etc separate and infront of you,
would you put them onto a spoon and give them to your kid? Would eat
them? Why do we accept it when some factory combines them and boxes
them, but individually you'd never dream of dumping "Yellow Dye #32"
into your breakfast cereal just to make it prettier? Or would you?

[Krimel]

Arlo,
If you are saying that we are often not very bright in the choices we make
with respect to diet, I agree. But that is not what this discussion is about
or at least what it was about. I was talking specifically about farming
practices that created the green revolution and has forestalled the
Malthusian crisis. I said that the speaker I listened to caused me to
question the received wisdom that these practices cause adverse health
effects. You speculate that chemical additives cause an increase in
cancers. Where is the evidence for this? According to the Washington Post,
"U.S. death rates from the disease have declined by 18.4 percent among men
and by 10.5 percent among women since mortality rates first started going
down in the early 1990s."

People eating the products of the Green Revolution live longer than ever
before. Most of the real killers are the result of sedentary lifestyle and
yes poor diet. But it is not the artificial chemicals that are the killers
it is the quantity and quality of the foods people choose to eat. It's the
sugar in the soda and the salt in the snacks that create as much harm as
unpronounceable chemical compounds. Those compounds are readily identifiable
and testable and if they are found to actually be harmful can be removed.
DDT, red dye number 2 and that nasty stuff the Chinese use come to mind.

It isn't the dyes that make Fruit Loops more noxious than Cheerios, it is
the sugar. But the issue I was pointing to was the legal sanction we give to
lying in advertising. You do touch on this as well. Fruit juice should be
fruit juice and it pisses me off to see syrup labeled juice as well. But
once again this is not an issue of science or agriculture. It is an issue of
politics and marketing. If you want to make the case that politics and
marketing are toxic influences, you will have to look elsewhere for
disagreement.

Krimel

--------------------------------------------
[Krimel]
And really what does "natural" mean as it related to food packaging?

[Arlo]
For me it means no artifical colors, dyes, or flavors. If the
producer wants the food to have a banana flavor, it should get that
from bananas, not from Lythoriumxa Sulfnate #7 (made that one up). If
a juice turns out off-red from the fruit juices it contains, so be
it, I don't need Yellow Dye #32 (good chance that one is real) to
give it a "brighter" color. Personally, I don't buy any packaged food
that contains preservatives. I'll have enough of that in me after I die.

I think this also raises another issue, and that is the junk that
passes for "food" in the first place. Its one thing to discuss the
relative health merits of organic bananas versus non-organic bananas,
or the merits between non-gmo bananas and bananas spliced with squid
genes, and maybe this makes me a curmudgeony fellow at heart, but
daggum it, when I buy something called "juice" it had better be
"juice". Not 95% water, 4.9% high fructose corn syrup, and a .1%
split between some colored dye and an artificial apple flavoring.
Therein I think lies our biggest health-related problem. That
doctor-dude from CNN, I saw him asked once what the biggest
health-risk food was in the typical American diet. He said "soda".
Reason being it has no nutritional value, it nothing but high
fructose syrups, chemicals and dyes. And yet we drink it by the
GALLONS. We consume it in huge Big Gulp cups that contain something
like 32 individual servings. Put down those Cheeze-Its and read the
ingredients. There is no actual food in there at all. And it is these
foods we consume in huge quantities. You say there is no evidence of
a health-risk, and yet I look around at the high-rates of intestinal
cancers and adult-onset diabetes and I can't help but think there is
a relation there. And even if there wasn't, even if the risk was so
low to my health from drinking dyed-blue high fructose corn syrup, I
would think the fact that drinking real juice is actually good for
you would make me choose the latter over the former every time. If I
want "cheese crackers", I'll open up some natural crackers (made with
only wheat, yeast, etc.) and cut a block of natural cheddar (aged
milk, no fake colors or flavors).

Ask yourself this. If you had all those individual ingredients, dyes,
chemicals, additives, corn syrups, etc separate and infront of you,
would you put them onto a spoon and give them to your kid? Would eat
them? Why do we accept it when some factory combines them and boxes
them, but individually you'd never dream of dumping "Yellow Dye #32"
into your breakfast cereal just to make it prettier? Or would you?

[MarshaV]

Food and medicine. Science just keeps moving us forward.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/26/AR2008092602505.html








.
.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

[ml]

Gav,

How exactly does this fit in MOQ?
How would you re-cast this in terms
of levels?

thanks--mel


----- Original Message -----
From: "gav" <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 3:10 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] Science: Medicine?


> it surprises me that people who understand that organic farming is better
than conventional farming don't get the same point in relation to their own
health. <snip>the chi don't flow...we are all dammed rivers.
>
> bye
>
>
>
> Make the switch to the world&#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

[MarshaV]

Now this made me laugh...

http://www.livescience.com/health/080904-brain-food.html

Such is the state of science.






.
.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

[gav]

the fact that we are having this discussion illustrates, amongst other things, a lack of quality awareness on krimel's part, with respect to food.
if you don't eat good food then you usually believe that what you are eating is good...how can you know what you are eating is shit if you have no experience of good food?
in my american travels with dave, rebecca and ant i must say i found the standard of food generally poor, and often horribly laced with chemicals and sweeteners (a fruit smoothie with sugar added!-crazy man). and i know a bit about shit food - i grew up in england.
so i presume krimel that you are not exactly an epicurean...fair enough, can be costly these days. but growing your own is the cheapest and best quality u will ever have (and i don't mean just food!)
g


--- On Fri, 26/9/08, Krimel <Krimel at Krimel.com> wrote:

> From: Krimel <Krimel at Krimel.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Science: Medicine?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008, 6:19 AM
> [Krimel]
> I know you and many others are attracted to organic produce
> but I
> have to say there is little or no evidence that the
> products of the
> "Green Revolution" are less nutritious, less
> tasty or in the least bit
> harmful.
>
> [Arlo]
> Well, I won't refer to any "studies" here,
> but I will say that my own
> experience with tomatoes has been that those I grow or get
> from our
> CSA are exponentially more tasty than those red tennis
> balls that
> grocery stores call "tomatoes". Indeed, it is
> primarily taste that
> keeps me in our CSA. If I didn't think the produce
> tasted so much
> better, I wouldn't eat it. That said, it doesn't
> need to be CSA
> foods, the local corn we get from Amish farmers (who are
> mostly
> organic, if not certified so) if far superior in taste to
> what passes
> for corn in the stores. And here's a challenge. Go out
> and buy a
> carton of Organic Valley milk (any variety), and a carton
> of whatever
> the big name dairy milk is in your area. Taste them side by
> side. If
> you can honestly tell me that the Organic Valley milk is
> not better
> (if not greatly better), I'd be very surprised.
>
> [Krimel]
> My father-in-law loves to tend a garden and I admit that
> his squash and
> beans are especially tasty but I don't see any
> difference but price between
> the produce in the "organic" section of my
> grocery store and the regular
> factory farmed produce. It is really just a matter of being
> too lazy to go
> to the farmer's market, I suppose but I like my grocery
> store.
>
> [Arlo]
> What studies I have seen on nutrition talk more about the
> gradual
> loss of vitamin and nutrient content as produce is packed
> and
> shipped. This makes the case for local foods when possible.
> A head of
> broccoli picked this morning contains more nutrients than
> broccoli
> picked days ago, packed and shipped, or frozen and stored
> for weeks.
>
> [Krimel]
> Sure, I suspect you are right but you nailed it below.
> Arguing the relative
> merits of growing technique is a luxury afforded only to
> those living in
> affluent countries.
>
> [Arlo]
> With regards to chemical farming, pesticides and other
> additives, I
> can only say that even if you could show me that consuming
> tomatoes
> sprayed with pesticides was "not harmful", the
> sum total of these
> chemicals being introduced into the environment gives me
> sufficient
> pause. That trace elements of pesticides (or other chemical
>
> fertilizers) make their way into our meat, eggs, and even
> our
> drinking water is just something I can see no good in,
> especially
> over a long haul or lifetime.
>
> [Krimel]
> I agree that argument has face validity and I rather
> assumed that it was at
> least likely. The lecture really just forced me to question
> the assumption
> and when I think about it (as opposed to actually looking
> it up) I know of
> no evidence to suggest that these traces actually have any
> adverse effects.
>
> [Arlo]
> And finally, regarding GMOs, I think even the most ardent
> opponents
> to GMOs recognize a difference between longterm breeding of
> a plant
> for particular traits (which was done unconsciously by our
> early
> socializing ancestors- see Guns, Germs and Steel for
> example) and the
> splicing of genes from fish our animals into plants. If a
> strain of
> rice could be cultivated that contains 15% more vitamin B,
> for
> example, I doubt many would object. But, to get that from
> splicing
> fish genes into the rice is a price too high for many
> (myself
> included). Of course, I speak from a nation of privilege,
> with
> abundant food and ample choice. If I lived in a
> famine-laden African
> country, I wonder if I'd be so concerned about whether
> or not my rice
> contained fish genes.
>
> [Krimel]
> I suspect that given the choice between products labeled
> "natural" or "GMO"
> I too would grab the "natural" product. But I do
> question whether this is
> just conditioning or whether it really is sensible. After
> all what
> difference does it make whether it takes 100 years or two
> weeks to
> genetically modify something? And really what does
> "natural" mean as it
> related to food packaging?
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
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[Krimel]

gav, Arlo, Margaret,

Look I don't care what people eat but I am a bit concerned about thinking
sensibly. gav presumes to judge the quality of my diet, wtf? gav says that
growing my own food would be cheaper and improve its quality. First I have,
not a green thumb, but a black one. The very touching of a seed by me is a
kiss of death. But this also ignores the fact that in order to grow my own
food I would have to buy a much larger chunk of land and even in a depressed
market that cost alone is prohibitive. But in order to tend such a garden
year round I would have to spend way more time outside than I have any
desire to do. Plus the time I spend hoeing at subminimum wage would mean I
could not do what I do do for a bit more than minimum wage. As for other
home grown products, it is not the cost of production that drives the price.
It is the risk factors involved and those are costs I am not willing in
incur. I think there are many points we might have in common with regards to
sustainability and ecological sensitivity but you come to them from a
romantic perspective that I respect but have little sympathy with.

"The greatest crime, the final treason is to do the right thing for the
wrong reason." (T.S. Elliot)
i am dazzled by the glorious collapse of the world!!!! (henry miller)
"Some men just want to watch the world burn," (Alfred the Butler)

I can't comment on the authors Margaret cites. As I said to Arlo this is not
an area of especial interest to me and the lecture I attended caused me to
question some of the assumptions I have. The authors you list do not appear
to have an abundance of publications in peer reviewed journals. They seem to
seek a partisan audience already sympathetic to their cause and uncritical
of what they are saying. There is a big difference between citing peer
reviewed articles and writing them. We recently had a thread about at press
that publishes works on Christian apologetics. In their articles on
intelligent design they cite lots of peer reviewed articles but their
conclusions and use of those article can not be taken seriously.

Many of the problems Arlo sees in the modern world, soda, cheese crackers...
don't come for chemicals in the food, they come from too much food. Obesity
is a major risk factor for heart disease, diabetes and all manner of health
problems. I don't see what that has to do with chemistry. If you broke raw
broccoli into its chemical constituents none of them would look very
appealing and some of them are carcinogenic. This talk of evil chemistry
just doesn't cut it. ALL food is a collection of chemicals. Lemon juice is a
preservative. So is salt. Are they bad? The fact that we can preserve food
means that it is available to eat. The faint possibility that preservatives
"might" be harmful really pales in comparison to the effects of eating
rotten food.

Not all genetic modifications must be done for economic reasons we could
genetically engineer foods to be tastier and more nutritious. It isn't the
practice we should be concerned with, it is the application. Which, is the
chief point at issue here. It is not the science that is bad and it is not
scientists saying we should eat crappy food.

Krimel

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Krimel]
Many of the problems Arlo sees in the modern world, soda, cheese
crackers... don't come for chemicals in the food, they come from too much food.

[Arlo]
Yes, I'd agree that our raw consumption of food is problematic, and
is a major factor in obesity rates. However, Krim, I want to clarify
that it is not "soda and cheese crackers" per se I see as problems,
but that much of what passes as "soda" and "cheese crackers" is flour
and water colored and flavored with dyes and chemicals. There are
healthy varieties of sodas and Cheeze-Its I eat on occasion (although
I personally prefer actual cut cheese on natural crackers). Here's
another challenge. In your local grocery, pick up a box of "healthy
Cheeze-Its" in your natural, organic section, and then go get a box
of regular Cheeze-Its. Read the ingredient lists side-by-side. If you
choose to consume the box of artificial dyes and chemicals that give
a "cheese flavor" over a box containing pretty much only yeast, wheat
and cheese, that's your call. But if you don't think Yellow Dye #35
is harmful, then why wouldn't you buy a bottle of this yellow dye and
pour it on foods yourself? Why do you accept it when it is done in a
factory? And I am a bit taken aback that you'd equate the "chemicals"
found inside broccoli as being on par with, or no different than,
chemical food dyes. Extending that logic, both broccoli and gasoline
are composed of "chemical compounds", so eating both should be
equally nutritious.

Also, while not being familiar with either the studies you or
Margaret cite, your criticism of her studies as pandering to a
sympathetic crowd, could one not draw the same conclusions about
articles saying that ingesting pesticides is harmless (who funded
that one?). I have seen several studies linking high-fructose corn
syrups and other artificial additives and dyes to diabetes,
intestinal cancers and depression. And as Khaled pointed out, this
stuff is in everything. Trace your food intake for a week or two. See
how much high fructose corn syrup, chemical dyes and other artificial
chemicals you consume. You may not be suffering, but I bet if you
spent the same amount of time eating fresh veggies and fruits,
organic and natural alternatives to the prepared foods you eat, you'd
feel better and have much more energy. That's been my experience anyway.

[gav]

i am dazzled by the glorious collapse of the world!!!! (henry miller)

yes it is true: i am absorbed, intrigued, awestruck by the collapse...the dumb greedy beast is terminal and ain't it grand!

we are on the threshold of something entirely new (....or another world war i suppose).

no more isms, no more politicians, no more banker wankers, no more ceo tossers, no more pointless academia: we gonna have to work boy!!!! the cemeteries are gonna bloom: the fruit of the dead.

remember, 'apocalypse' means to pierce the veil; it is not the end - although it may well be the end of time (a mayan excursis for another time).

we can see through the projections now; we can recognise the programming: how we have been drilled to feel fear, shame, guilt...and we can let them go. they belong to another epoch, a distant antediluvian time that will fade rapidly from the memory as the new generations live fully and completely with the earth and with each other.

we are all different; we are all equal; we are all one: gaia.

rock on



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[Peter Corteen]

Call me cynical but I think the world much as it is now will survive this
collapse; capitalism will continue. Like you, I think things will be better
after the crisis subsides. The Wall Street agreement will go through, the
stronger after it's difficult conception.

It's going to be a long recovery but I think the markets have hit the bottom
now.

Hallelujah, we're all going to the Lord!

Peter

2008/9/25 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>

> i am dazzled by the glorious collapse of the world!!!! (henry miller)
>
> yes it is true: i am absorbed, intrigued, awestruck by the collapse...the
> dumb greedy beast is terminal and ain't it grand!
>
> we are on the threshold of something entirely new (....or another world war
> i suppose).
>
> no more isms, no more politicians, no more banker wankers, no more ceo
> tossers, no more pointless academia: we gonna have to work boy!!!! the
> cemeteries are gonna bloom: the fruit of the dead.
>
> remember, 'apocalypse' means to pierce the veil; it is not the end -
> although it may well be the end of time (a mayan excursis for another time).
>
> we can see through the projections now; we can recognise the programming:
> how we have been drilled to feel fear, shame, guilt...and we can let them
> go. they belong to another epoch, a distant antediluvian time that will fade
> rapidly from the memory as the new generations live fully and completely
> with the earth and with each other.
>
> we are all different; we are all equal; we are all one: gaia.
>
> rock on
>
>
>
> Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>

[Krimel]

[gav]
we are on the threshold of something entirely new (....or another world war
i suppose).

[Krimel]
On the threshold? Have you been paying attention at all? The world has been
transformed into something entirely new about every decade in the recent
past. Revolutions do not necessarily fill cemeteries.

[david buchanan]

Krimel said to Gav:
The world has been transformed into something entirely new about every decade in the recent past.

dmb says:
How so? I guess it depends on what you mean by "revolution". I don't see anything that deserves the name. If you're talking about computers, I disagree. Starry-eyed geeks talk about cyber-utopia but all I see is a pointless acceleration of the same old same-old. Politically speaking, we've been moving backward. Socially, everything looks like a re-treaded version of the same old issues we've been dealing with since the 19th century. So what's entirely new? What transformations have you seen in the last decade or two or three?

Are you saying that you DON'T have the sense that we're on the verge of something? I do. I think global warming is pretty freakin' epic, for example. This little ball is getting pretty damn crowded too. If this latest financial collapse is as big as they say, it will be a new version of the global depression we saw in the '30s. Civilization is literally fueled by stuff that's running out. The collapse of these huge unsustainable systems seems to be converging, exerting pressure from several sides at once. It seems these are the kind of pressures that will really push events, force some real changes and it's about to happen whether we like it or not.

If the apocalypse is "the time when things are revealed" then this would deserve the name. Now is the time when the inherent contradictions in our way of being are being exposed for what they are. Our unsustainable, hyped-up, gasoline-powered ego-mania is running way too hot and she's gonna seize up. Or fly apart.

P.S. Gav, on behalf of the American people, I want to apologize for the quality of the food you encountered on the road between Minneapolis and Bozeman. (Can't get a decent cup of coffee anywhere between them either.) That is probably the worst region in North America, foodwise. I should have made it a point to hit some of the restaurants when you were here in Denver. There are a dozen good ones right here in the neighborhood, some of which even serve American food. My back yard isn't too bad this time of year either. We had hundreds of peaches - our friends and neighbors each took dozens and the squirrels and birds were happy about it too. We've got grapes, eggplants and the pumpkins are already huge. There's a free-range organic rancher in southern Colorado, a Japanese guy with a parcel of land as big as Tokyo for his family and the cows. (Although, "Coleman" is the brand name.) Best steaks I ever ate. The difference in quality is not very subtle either. I mean, nothing else will do now. Normal beef is just downright bad by comparison. It's like I can taste their miserable, lot-fed, filthy lives. This is just as true for chicken.

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[Platt Holden]

Hi All,

A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many
others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and
among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to
support more government programs, in other words, redistribution of wealth.

She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a
feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had
participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that
her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he
thought should be his.

One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes
on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed
objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she
indicated so to her father.

He responded by asking how she was doing in school. Taken aback, she
answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it
was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult
course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out
and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a
boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent
all her time studying.

Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing?' She
replied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she
never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus;
college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and
lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung
over.

Her father asked his daughter, why don't you go to the Dean's office and
ask him to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has
a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a
fair and equal distribution of GPA.

The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired
back, 'That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair? I've worked really hard
for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey
has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my
tail off!'

The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the
Republican party.'

Regards,
Platt

[Arlo Bensinger]

[Platt]
The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the
Republican party.'

[Arlo]
How appropriate. Using a controlled, phony and ridiculously contrived
dialogue to sell your party. It's got all the party soundbites.
"Redistribution of wealth", leftist professors, lazy and stupid
slackers; and the heroine, a hard-working virginal daughter whose
simple naiveity was manipulated by a radical perfesser to buy into
the evil, unfair world of Marxism... Yes, folks, welcome...

[Ham Priday]

Greetings, Platt --

Your allegory is well told and to the point. What makes it especially
poignant in these times is that it stresses diligence in work and effort
rather than monetary rewards. (Judging by the current economic news, the
latter may not be around much anymore.)

It might cheer you to know that I just returned from putting in my first
four hours as a volunteer at our local McCain Campaign headquarters.

Welcome back!

--Ham

[Platt Holden]

[Ham]
> Greetings, Platt --
>
> Your allegory is well told and to the point. What makes it especially
> poignant in these times is that it stresses diligence in work and effort
> rather than monetary rewards. (Judging by the current economic news,
> the
> latter may not be around much anymore.)
>
> It might cheer you to know that I just returned from putting in my first
> four hours as a volunteer at our local McCain Campaign headquarters.
>
> Welcome back!

Thank you, Ham. Indeed it's cheering to know you're working to elect John
McCain. I shudder to think about the alternative, the prophecy of F.A.
Hayek coming true -- full speed down "The Road to Serfdom."

Take care, my friend.
Platt

[ml]

Platt,

That's a good story for the Republicans of thirty years ago.
With maybe a few exceptions, I'm afraid that it won't work for
today's world. Both will take whatever you make, they just
spend it 4% differently+/-.

thanks--mel



----- Original Message -----
From: "Platt Holden" <plattholden at gmail.com>
To: <moq_discuss at moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 1:26 PM
Subject: [MD] A modern allegory


> Hi All,
>
> A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many
> others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and
> among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to
> support more government programs, in other words, redistribution of
wealth.
>
<snip>
>
> The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the
> Republican party.'
>
> Regards,
> Platt
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

[Khaled Alkotob]

[Arlo]
> That doctor-dude from CNN, I saw him asked once what the biggest
> health-risk food was in the typical American diet. He said "soda".
> Reason being it has no nutritional value, it nothing but high
> fructose syrups, chemicals and dyes. And yet we drink it by the
> GALLONS.

High Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) is like cigarettes, it will take another
30 years of research and lawsuits to put a stop to that stuff.

all you have to do is go to google and type 'high fructose corn syrup
evil" and see what comes up.

Here is why it's bad for you

1. It's made by taking GM corn and feeding it twice to a Genetically
engineered bacteria to turn the starch to sugar.
2. Once ingested, the body does not know what to make of it, so it turns
it to fat right away
3. It interferes with the hormones created when you chew ( food counter)
and sends the body a signal that you are not full yet.

I read somewhere ( sorry can't find the research so my numbers are off)
that 25% of US women take 50% of their daily calories from salad dressing
( oil and HFCS)

Just when you thought sugar was bad for you, HFCS is really bad for you.
it's in 80% of processed foods.

Khaled
____________________________________________________________
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[Margaret Warren]

hope you don't mind me jumping in here -
but there is some wonderful research
available by Dr. Sherry Rogers - a board certified
AMA Dr. with over 30 years of experience as
a practicing physician -- GP specializing in allergies
and environmental medicine.

One of her notable books is called:

The Scientific Evidence for Selected Environmental Medical Techniques
which has hundreds of referenced scientific journal
articles from among others Harvard Medical, Journal of AMA,
New England Journal of Medicine, etc.

I have heard her speak before and taped her lectures.

Her point of view (and also that of Dr. Neal Barnard)
is that unquestionably our exposure to
environmental toxins has lowered our nutrient levels -
AND our nutritional daily requirements are based on
population averages and not the true
the cattle association, the cheese association and
other lobbying associations encourage regulations
based on what's good for their industry
rather than true research.

I know that I have done some simple things: 1) I use
water stored in glass 2) I buy all organic as much as possible.
Locally grown organic is the best.
3) have added some basic supplements to my daily regimen.
4) avoid buying and storing things in plastic/ heating or freezing in
plastic.

AND I KNOW that I am much healthier than I was 2 years ago.
No question.

She's got some other great books as well.

Its basically just common sense - eliminate the toxins, increase
nutrients. Here idea is to go for the CAUSE of illnesses - not
just treat the symptoms. Her work is based on molecular medicine -
so she looks at HOW the body deals with all of these drugs and why
our medical system is so screwed up.

The people who write the practice guidelines - which is what all drs are
supposed to follow are almost ALL on the boards of some pharmaceutical
company or another.

and yes - I can definitely taste the difference between organically
grown produce and chemically treated produce. Or lets just say that
over time - after I've been eating at home - as much 'clean' food as
possible - I definitely can tell/experience the 'chemicals' in
food from restaurants and stuff.

MM












> -----Original Message-----
> From: moq_discuss-bounces at lists.moqtalk.org [mailto:moq_discuss-
> bounces at lists.moqtalk.org] On Behalf Of gav
> Sent: Thursday, September 25, 2008 4:41 PM
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] Science: Medicine?
>
>
> the fact that we are having this discussion illustrates, amongst other
> things, a lack of quality awareness on krimel's part, with respect to
> food.
> if you don't eat good food then you usually believe that what you are
> eating is good...how can you know what you are eating is shit if you have
> no experience of good food?
> in my american travels with dave, rebecca and ant i must say i found the
> standard of food generally poor, and often horribly laced with chemicals
> and sweeteners (a fruit smoothie with sugar added!-crazy man). and i know
> a bit about shit food - i grew up in england.
> so i presume krimel that you are not exactly an epicurean...fair enough,
> can be costly these days. but growing your own is the cheapest and best
> quality u will ever have (and i don't mean just food!)
> g
>
>
> --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Krimel <Krimel at Krimel.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Krimel <Krimel at Krimel.com>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] Science: Medicine?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008, 6:19 AM
> > [Krimel]
> > I know you and many others are attracted to organic produce
> > but I
> > have to say there is little or no evidence that the
> > products of the
> > "Green Revolution" are less nutritious, less
> > tasty or in the least bit
> > harmful.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > Well, I won't refer to any "studies" here,
> > but I will say that my own
> > experience with tomatoes has been that those I grow or get
> > from our
> > CSA are exponentially more tasty than those red tennis
> > balls that
> > grocery stores call "tomatoes". Indeed, it is
> > primarily taste that
> > keeps me in our CSA. If I didn't think the produce
> > tasted so much
> > better, I wouldn't eat it. That said, it doesn't
> > need to be CSA
> > foods, the local corn we get from Amish farmers (who are
> > mostly
> > organic, if not certified so) if far superior in taste to
> > what passes
> > for corn in the stores. And here's a challenge. Go out
> > and buy a
> > carton of Organic Valley milk (any variety), and a carton
> > of whatever
> > the big name dairy milk is in your area. Taste them side by
> > side. If
> > you can honestly tell me that the Organic Valley milk is
> > not better
> > (if not greatly better), I'd be very surprised.
> >
> > [Krimel]
> > My father-in-law loves to tend a garden and I admit that
> > his squash and
> > beans are especially tasty but I don't see any
> > difference but price between
> > the produce in the "organic" section of my
> > grocery store and the regular
> > factory farmed produce. It is really just a matter of being
> > too lazy to go
> > to the farmer's market, I suppose but I like my grocery
> > store.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > What studies I have seen on nutrition talk more about the
> > gradual
> > loss of vitamin and nutrient content as produce is packed
> > and
> > shipped. This makes the case for local foods when possible.
> > A head of
> > broccoli picked this morning contains more nutrients than
> > broccoli
> > picked days ago, packed and shipped, or frozen and stored
> > for weeks.
> >
> > [Krimel]
> > Sure, I suspect you are right but you nailed it below.
> > Arguing the relative
> > merits of growing technique is a luxury afforded only to
> > those living in
> > affluent countries.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > With regards to chemical farming, pesticides and other
> > additives, I
> > can only say that even if you could show me that consuming
> > tomatoes
> > sprayed with pesticides was "not harmful", the
> > sum total of these
> > chemicals being introduced into the environment gives me
> > sufficient
> > pause. That trace elements of pesticides (or other chemical
> >
> > fertilizers) make their way into our meat, eggs, and even
> > our
> > drinking water is just something I can see no good in,
> > especially
> > over a long haul or lifetime.
> >
> > [Krimel]
> > I agree that argument has face validity and I rather
> > assumed that it was at
> > least likely. The lecture really just forced me to question
> > the assumption
> > and when I think about it (as opposed to actually looking
> > it up) I know of
> > no evidence to suggest that these traces actually have any
> > adverse effects.
> >
> > [Arlo]
> > And finally, regarding GMOs, I think even the most ardent
> > opponents
> > to GMOs recognize a difference between longterm breeding of
> > a plant
> > for particular traits (which was done unconsciously by our
> > early
> > socializing ancestors- see Guns, Germs and Steel for
> > example) and the
> > splicing of genes from fish our animals into plants. If a
> > strain of
> > rice could be cultivated that contains 15% more vitamin B,
> > for
> > example, I doubt many would object. But, to get that from
> > splicing
> > fish genes into the rice is a price too high for many
> > (myself
> > included). Of course, I speak from a nation of privilege,
> > with
> > abundant food and ample choice. If I lived in a
> > famine-laden African
> > country, I wonder if I'd be so concerned about whether
> > or not my rice
> > contained fish genes.
> >
> > [Krimel]
> > I suspect that given the choice between products labeled
> > "natural" or "GMO"
> > I too would grab the "natural" product. But I do
> > question whether this is
> > just conditioning or whether it really is sensible. After
> > all what
> > difference does it make whether it takes 100 years or two
> > weeks to
> > genetically modify something? And really what does
> > "natural" mean as it
> > related to food packaging?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[gav]

i don't think the world and capitalism can both survive...one has to go.


--- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:

> From: Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008, 5:03 PM
> Call me cynical but I think the world much as it is now will
> survive this
> collapse; capitalism will continue. Like you, I think
> things will be better
> after the crisis subsides. The Wall Street agreement will
> go through, the
> stronger after it's difficult conception.
>
> It's going to be a long recovery but I think the
> markets have hit the bottom
> now.
>
> Hallelujah, we're all going to the Lord!
>
> Peter
>
> 2008/9/25 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
>
> > i am dazzled by the glorious collapse of the world!!!!
> (henry miller)
> >
> > yes it is true: i am absorbed, intrigued, awestruck by
> the collapse...the
> > dumb greedy beast is terminal and ain't it grand!
> >
> > we are on the threshold of something entirely new
> (....or another world war
> > i suppose).
> >
> > no more isms, no more politicians, no more banker
> wankers, no more ceo
> > tossers, no more pointless academia: we gonna have to
> work boy!!!! the
> > cemeteries are gonna bloom: the fruit of the dead.
> >
> > remember, 'apocalypse' means to pierce the
> veil; it is not the end -
> > although it may well be the end of time (a mayan
> excursis for another time).
> >
> > we can see through the projections now; we can
> recognise the programming:
> > how we have been drilled to feel fear, shame,
> guilt...and we can let them
> > go. they belong to another epoch, a distant
> antediluvian time that will fade
> > rapidly from the memory as the new generations live
> fully and completely
> > with the earth and with each other.
> >
> > we are all different; we are all equal; we are all
> one: gaia.
> >
> > rock on
> >
> >
> >
> > Make the switch to the world's best email.
> Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >
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> >
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> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
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[Peter Corteen]

life is competition - you can't escape that



2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>

> i don't think the world and capitalism can both survive...one has to go.
>
>
> --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008, 5:03 PM
> > Call me cynical but I think the world much as it is now will
> > survive this
> > collapse; capitalism will continue. Like you, I think
> > things will be better
> > after the crisis subsides. The Wall Street agreement will
> > go through, the
> > stronger after it's difficult conception.
> >
> > It's going to be a long recovery but I think the
> > markets have hit the bottom
> > now.
> >
> > Hallelujah, we're all going to the Lord!
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > 2008/9/25 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> >
> > > i am dazzled by the glorious collapse of the world!!!!
> > (henry miller)
> > >
> > > yes it is true: i am absorbed, intrigued, awestruck by
> > the collapse...the
> > > dumb greedy beast is terminal and ain't it grand!
> > >
> > > we are on the threshold of something entirely new
> > (....or another world war
> > > i suppose).
> > >
> > > no more isms, no more politicians, no more banker
> > wankers, no more ceo
> > > tossers, no more pointless academia: we gonna have to
> > work boy!!!! the
> > > cemeteries are gonna bloom: the fruit of the dead.
> > >
> > > remember, 'apocalypse' means to pierce the
> > veil; it is not the end -
> > > although it may well be the end of time (a mayan
> > excursis for another time).
> > >
> > > we can see through the projections now; we can
> > recognise the programming:
> > > how we have been drilled to feel fear, shame,
> > guilt...and we can let them
> > > go. they belong to another epoch, a distant
> > antediluvian time that will fade
> > > rapidly from the memory as the new generations live
> > fully and completely
> > > with the earth and with each other.
> > >
> > > we are all different; we are all equal; we are all
> > one: gaia.
> > >
> > > rock on
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Make the switch to the world's best email.
> > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > Archives:
> > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
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>

[gav]

life is competition eh peter?
well who does gaia compete with? mars?




--- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:

> From: Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 1:10 AM
> life is competition - you can't escape that
>
>
>
> 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
>
> > i don't think the world and capitalism can both
> survive...one has to go.
> >
> >
> > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen
> <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Peter Corteen
> <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008, 5:03 PM
> > > Call me cynical but I think the world much as it
> is now will
> > > survive this
> > > collapse; capitalism will continue. Like you, I
> think
> > > things will be better
> > > after the crisis subsides. The Wall Street
> agreement will
> > > go through, the
> > > stronger after it's difficult conception.
> > >
> > > It's going to be a long recovery but I think
> the
> > > markets have hit the bottom
> > > now.
> > >
> > > Hallelujah, we're all going to the Lord!
> > >
> > > Peter
> > >
> > > 2008/9/25 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > >
> > > > i am dazzled by the glorious collapse of the
> world!!!!
> > > (henry miller)
> > > >
> > > > yes it is true: i am absorbed, intrigued,
> awestruck by
> > > the collapse...the
> > > > dumb greedy beast is terminal and ain't
> it grand!
> > > >
> > > > we are on the threshold of something
> entirely new
> > > (....or another world war
> > > > i suppose).
> > > >
> > > > no more isms, no more politicians, no more
> banker
> > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > tossers, no more pointless academia: we
> gonna have to
> > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > cemeteries are gonna bloom: the fruit of the
> dead.
> > > >
> > > > remember, 'apocalypse' means to
> pierce the
> > > veil; it is not the end -
> > > > although it may well be the end of time (a
> mayan
> > > excursis for another time).
> > > >
> > > > we can see through the projections now; we
> can
> > > recognise the programming:
> > > > how we have been drilled to feel fear,
> shame,
> > > guilt...and we can let them
> > > > go. they belong to another epoch, a distant
> > > antediluvian time that will fade
> > > > rapidly from the memory as the new
> generations live
> > > fully and completely
> > > > with the earth and with each other.
> > > >
> > > > we are all different; we are all equal; we
> are all
> > > one: gaia.
> > > >
> > > > rock on
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Make the switch to the world's best
> email.
> > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > Archives:
> > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > >
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > >
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > Archives:
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> >
> > Make the switch to the world's best email.
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> >
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> >
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[Peter Corteen]

No Gav, the sun and moon.

2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>

>
> life is competition eh peter?
> well who does gaia compete with? mars?
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 1:10 AM
> > life is competition - you can't escape that
> >
> >
> >
> > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> >
> > > i don't think the world and capitalism can both
> > survive...one has to go.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008, 5:03 PM
> > > > Call me cynical but I think the world much as it
> > is now will
> > > > survive this
> > > > collapse; capitalism will continue. Like you, I
> > think
> > > > things will be better
> > > > after the crisis subsides. The Wall Street
> > agreement will
> > > > go through, the
> > > > stronger after it's difficult conception.
> > > >
> > > > It's going to be a long recovery but I think
> > the
> > > > markets have hit the bottom
> > > > now.
> > > >
> > > > Hallelujah, we're all going to the Lord!
> > > >
> > > > Peter
> > > >
> > > > 2008/9/25 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > i am dazzled by the glorious collapse of the
> > world!!!!
> > > > (henry miller)
> > > > >
> > > > > yes it is true: i am absorbed, intrigued,
> > awestruck by
> > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > dumb greedy beast is terminal and ain't
> > it grand!
> > > > >
> > > > > we are on the threshold of something
> > entirely new
> > > > (....or another world war
> > > > > i suppose).
> > > > >
> > > > > no more isms, no more politicians, no more
> > banker
> > > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > > tossers, no more pointless academia: we
> > gonna have to
> > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > cemeteries are gonna bloom: the fruit of the
> > dead.
> > > > >
> > > > > remember, 'apocalypse' means to
> > pierce the
> > > > veil; it is not the end -
> > > > > although it may well be the end of time (a
> > mayan
> > > > excursis for another time).
> > > > >
> > > > > we can see through the projections now; we
> > can
> > > > recognise the programming:
> > > > > how we have been drilled to feel fear,
> > shame,
> > > > guilt...and we can let them
> > > > > go. they belong to another epoch, a distant
> > > > antediluvian time that will fade
> > > > > rapidly from the memory as the new
> > generations live
> > > > fully and completely
> > > > > with the earth and with each other.
> > > > >
> > > > > we are all different; we are all equal; we
> > are all
> > > > one: gaia.
> > > > >
> > > > > rock on
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Make the switch to the world's best
> > email.
> > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > Archives:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
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> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
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> > >
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[gav]

krimel, erm....what r u on about?

i'm just sitting here watching the wheels fly off





--- On Sat, 27/9/08, david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com> wrote:

> From: david buchanan <dmbuchanan at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 2:39 AM
> Krimel said to Gav:
> The world has been transformed into something entirely new
> about every decade in the recent past.
>
> dmb says:
> How so? I guess it depends on what you mean by
> "revolution". I don't see anything that
> deserves the name. If you're talking about computers, I
> disagree. Starry-eyed geeks talk about cyber-utopia but all
> I see is a pointless acceleration of the same old same-old.
> Politically speaking, we've been moving backward.
> Socially, everything looks like a re-treaded version of the
> same old issues we've been dealing with since the 19th
> century. So what's entirely new? What transformations
> have you seen in the last decade or two or three?
>
> Are you saying that you DON'T have the sense that
> we're on the verge of something? I do. I think global
> warming is pretty freakin' epic, for example. This
> little ball is getting pretty damn crowded too. If this
> latest financial collapse is as big as they say, it will be
> a new version of the global depression we saw in the
> '30s. Civilization is literally fueled by stuff
> that's running out. The collapse of these huge
> unsustainable systems seems to be converging, exerting
> pressure from several sides at once. It seems these are the
> kind of pressures that will really push events, force some
> real changes and it's about to happen whether we like it
> or not.
>
> If the apocalypse is "the time when things are
> revealed" then this would deserve the name. Now is the
> time when the inherent contradictions in our way of being
> are being exposed for what they are. Our unsustainable,
> hyped-up, gasoline-powered ego-mania is running way too hot
> and she's gonna seize up. Or fly apart.
>
> P.S. Gav, on behalf of the American people, I want to
> apologize for the quality of the food you encountered on the
> road between Minneapolis and Bozeman. (Can't get a
> decent cup of coffee anywhere between them either.) That is
> probably the worst region in North America, foodwise. I
> should have made it a point to hit some of the restaurants
> when you were here in Denver. There are a dozen good ones
> right here in the neighborhood, some of which even serve
> American food. My back yard isn't too bad this time of
> year either. We had hundreds of peaches - our friends and
> neighbors each took dozens and the squirrels and birds were
> happy about it too. We've got grapes, eggplants and the
> pumpkins are already huge. There's a free-range organic
> rancher in southern Colorado, a Japanese guy with a parcel
> of land as big as Tokyo for his family and the cows.
> (Although, "Coleman" is the brand name.) Best
> steaks I ever ate. The difference in quality is not very
> subtle either. I mean, nothing else will do now. Normal beef
> is just downright bad by comparison. It's like I can
> taste their miserable, lot-fed, filthy lives. This is just
> as true for chicken.
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden
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[Krimel]

gav and dmb,

With regards to revolutions over the past, say fifty years, I would include:

Television, plastics, interstate highways, cell phones, air travel, space
travel, civil rights, the rise of worldwide fundamentalism, the conservative
revolutions of Raygun and Thatcher, magnetic media, digital media, the green
revolution in agriculture, open heart surgery, the cure of most diseases of
childhood, the discovery of the genetic code, the cracking of the genetic
code, lasers, fiber optics, satellites, nearly universal surveillance, the
belief that taxation is theft, cynicism towards our fundamental
institutions, quantum theory, information theory, complexity theory, single
parent families, two income households...

Let me know if you need more.

As for your concern about impending apocalypse or being on the "verge of
something" do you think that's something new? The board of directors of the
Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists at the University of Chicago, has
maintained The Doomsday Clock since 1947.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_Clock

It goes up and down and has for the past 60 years. Nuclear annihilation
spawned epic science fiction and universal paranoia throughout the cold war.
But the Malthusian crisis has loomed large on the horizon since the 1840s.
It was the Green Revolution that pushed the hands of the Malthusian clock
backwards, for a while at least. Real threats aside, we have been bombarded
by wacko Biblical and prophetic predictions of the end of days since before
the Greeks.

http://www.abhota.info/end1.htm

Notice that the year 2000 gets its own page as there was a bumper crop of
weirdo's speculating on technological meltdown and the numerological
significance of the end of the millennium. Of course now there is a sizable
pack of nut cases led in part by gav's beloved Terence McKenna espousing
2012 as the end of the Mayan calendar and thus the end of time itself.

I have tried not to over emphasize technology in the list above but that is
somewhat inevitable since revolutions are often technologically driven. The
printing press drove the reformation for example. Still I left out the
explosion of the intellectual level that has occurred in the past 10 years.
I know tech talk makes you romantics uncomfortable but I suspect putting the
combined wisdom of all the ages at the fingertips of everyone on the planet
might have dramatic effects.

When you talk about acceleration of the same old same old, dmb, what do you
expect? The "same old same old" is what? Concern for how we will feed our
children? Putting roofs over our heads? The same old same old is Maslow's
hierarchy. It is not going to change. Societies can move us from one level
of his hierarchy to the next but the hierarchy will still be the same.

Not all revolutions lead to progress of course. The Raygun Revolution took
us several steps backward culturally and morally. Consider where we are
today and listen to what the president of the United State said to the
people in:

1977: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tPePpMxJaA

1979: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gwzyvkc1tb4

To paraphrase the charlatan who unseated Carter in 1980. Ask yourself this
are you better off than you were before the Raygun Revolution? Can you
imagine a politician promising not to lie to you and then taking the next
step and actually telling you truths that make you fidget?

If as you two think, we are on the verge of something awful well maybe but
it is nothing new, it is nothing unexpected; it is a direct consequence of
the paths we as a people have consciously chosen to follow. This is a set of
social and political patterns that have been repeated over and over again
since Biblical times: affluence leads to apathy which leads to disaster.

I suppose you could say that the greatest revolution in our thinking in the
past 30 years has been, to borrow from T.S. Elliot's "Hollow Men", now we
think the world will end: not with a nuclear bang but with a climatic
whimper.

But this is exactly what the American people have asked for. We voted in
favor of it time and time again. Platt, Ham, Craig, Micah and others on this
forum continue to support the "ideology" that produced the current state of
affairs.

So, to conclude I would say there have been lots of revolutions, lots of
threats to survival, lots of promises made and hopes renewed then dashed.
This is the way of the world my friends. Is the current crisis worse than
waking up every single morning with the potential for mushroom clouds
sprouting by the end of the day? I think not. Is there a credible threat to
our survival? Yes, but it has been ever so. Even crazy Christian preachers
can sound credible. Even Nostradamus appeals to some. Even the tea leaves
and entrails and the vagaries of ancient calendars fuel the paranoia of
many.

Humanity does seem to have suicidal tendencies but where's the revolution in
that?

Krimel

[Khaled Alkotob]

> [Platt]
> The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the
> Republican party.'
>
> [Arlo]
> How appropriate. Using a controlled, phony and ridiculously
> contrived
> dialogue to sell your party. It's got all the party sound bites.
> "Redistribution of wealth", leftist professors, lazy and stupid
> slackers; and the heroine, a hardworking virginal daughter whose
> simple naivety was manipulated by a radical professor to buy into
> the evil, unfair world of Marxism... Yes, folks, welcome...


Arlo you got it all wrong

Sure when the father asks his daughter to share her GPA points, she is
going to have a fit.
The republican way of doing it, is for someone to deliver a
'contribution' to the dean's office, to elevate that poor girls grade.

Just ask Hank Paulson.

khaled
____________________________________________________________
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[ARLO J BENSINGER JR]

[Khaled]
The republican way of doing it, is for someone to deliver a 'contribution' to
the dean's office, to elevate that poor girls grade.

[Arlo]
Yeah, you're right. And I suppose that father would have to explain to his
daughter that it is okay for part of her GPA to be taken away and given to
Mark, who's serving in the military. He'd have to fess up that it's not "taking
away her GPA and giving it to others" that's at issue, its giving it to slutty,
partying, lazy, stupid "classmates".

I also wonder what that daughter's reaction would be towards being given the
option to have her GPA lowered from 3.0 to 2.98 if doing so would cure her
classmates of cancer. Since the dialogue is in Platt's hands, of course, I'm
sure she would say something Dickensesque ("let them die and decrease the
surplus population").

I also imagine that she'd come to realize that all the problems in the world
are the result of evil collectivists and radical leftists, everything from teen
pregnancy to the financial crisis... all the fault of libs. Oh, and since Ham
chimed in with (surprise, surprise) praise for Platt's low-brow "parable", I
suppose he'd work in those damnable "nihilists" as well.

[david buchanan]

Khaled said:
The republican way of doing it, is for someone to deliver a 'contribution' to the dean's office, to elevate that poor girls grade.

Arlo replied:
Yeah, you're right. And I suppose that father would have to explain to his daughter that it is okay for part of her GPA to be taken away and given to Mark, who's serving in the military. He'd have to fess up that it's not "taking away her GPA and giving it to others" that's at issue, its giving it to slutty, partying, lazy, stupid "classmates".

dmb says:
Exactly. Platt's allegory isn't about economics or even fairness so much as it's about self-righteousness and moral condemnation. It's an expression of the Protestant ethic that's always formed the basis of Capitalism. It's the kind of Social Darwinism that adds insult to injury. I mean, this is a mighty fine example of the way this ethic is used to make economic exploitation and injustice into something morally permissible, if not worthy of praise. That's what Max Weber was saying in his famous book, as I recently tried to explain.

There's also a section about one of the biggest obstacles that Capitalism faced when it was just getting started. Apparently, the so-called "work ethic" doesn't come naturally and it was very hard to get increased productivity out of the workers. Weber tells a little story about a farm worker who was paid, let's say, $10 for every acre harvested and he usually finishes 3 acres pre day. But his employer wants him to worker faster or longer so as to finish 4 per day, so he offers him a raise. He say's he'll pay $15 per acre. But instead of getting all happy about being able to make twice as much money, the worker figures that $30 per day is what he's used to and so decides it would be better to harvest just 2 acres and call it a day, so he can go fishing or spend time at home or whatever, instead of earning extra money. For the worker, money is just a means to the end and the end is a good life. This is very frustrating to the employer, who needs workers who are motived by cash above all. And so people in Capitalist cultures who have internalized this ethic have been complaining about lazy slackers since the earth was young, usually with racist and/or nationalistic overtones. Moral condemnation has used to impose this Protestant ethic for hundreds of years. We all learned this as kids and so we teach our children. It says earning money is an end in itself, that's how we keep score in this world. And dedicated hard work is a moral duty above all others.

Consider the lilies of field, eh? They only grow because they toil and spin forty, fifty, sixty hours a week. Do they not plot out their business careers and play the stock market? They stay thin by worrying and they dress modestly, mostly in earth tones. That's how God wants you to live, only more so. It's only natural - you know - because life IS competition. Ha! It has a way of turning things upside down, doesn't it? It's not really morality so much as judgmental cruelty disguised as morality. It teaches people to hate those who suffer, to blame the victims, to shut off their basic sense of empathy and decency. It's really depressing to think about how many American cheer for this cold, ugly thing.

_________________________________________________________________
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[David M]

if the daughter just said that what grades anyone got did not matter,
it was what she had learnt that really mattered then perhaps we would
be talking about quality and not about appearances.

DM

[gav]

a young man was trying to decide whether he should go to uni or get a job. after a while he decided to plant a tree.


--- On Sat, 27/9/08, ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu> wrote:

> From: ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu>
> Subject: Re: [MD] A modern allegory
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:42 AM
> [Khaled]
> The republican way of doing it, is for someone to deliver a
> 'contribution' to
> the dean's office, to elevate that poor girls grade.
>
> [Arlo]
> Yeah, you're right. And I suppose that father would
> have to explain to his
> daughter that it is okay for part of her GPA to be taken
> away and given to
> Mark, who's serving in the military. He'd have to
> fess up that it's not "taking
> away her GPA and giving it to others" that's at
> issue, its giving it to slutty,
> partying, lazy, stupid "classmates".
>
> I also wonder what that daughter's reaction would be
> towards being given the
> option to have her GPA lowered from 3.0 to 2.98 if doing so
> would cure her
> classmates of cancer. Since the dialogue is in Platt's
> hands, of course, I'm
> sure she would say something Dickensesque ("let them
> die and decrease the
> surplus population").
>
> I also imagine that she'd come to realize that all the
> problems in the world
> are the result of evil collectivists and radical leftists,
> everything from teen
> pregnancy to the financial crisis... all the fault of libs.
> Oh, and since Ham
> chimed in with (surprise, surprise) praise for Platt's
> low-brow "parable", I
> suppose he'd work in those damnable
> "nihilists" as well.
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/


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[Christoffer Ivarsson]

OK, you provoked me. Again.

And I put it to you that I am bound by Quality to hate you. Perhaps not you
as a person, and not everything you say (you wrote something in Lila's child
about the MOQ being a "code of art" and a lot of other stuff in there that I
really liked) but these values you are expressing - I must hate them, with
all my heart.

The same way I must hate Islamic fundamentalism, Racism and stuff like that
I HAVE to hate republican "ideology".

People yelling Allah akbar, Sieg Heil or Freedom or chanting the name given
to an administrative entity called a nation must be identified as the
champions of the Social Level, fighting the intellectual level with all they've
got. And I am bound by evolution to fight back.

I keep saying over and over aging. And ideology cantered around the freedom
to earn money is undeniably in service of the social level. It isn't more
difficult than that. And Freedom. It's just a word.


Pompously elitist and sincerely yours

Chris




> From: "Platt Holden"

>
> A young woman was about to finish her first year of college. Like so many
> others her age, she considered herself to be a very liberal Democrat, and
> among other liberal ideals, was very much in favor of higher taxes to
> support more government programs, in other words, redistribution of
> wealth.
>
> She was deeply ashamed that her father was a rather staunch Republican, a
> feeling she openly expressed. Based on the lectures that she had
> participated in, and the occasional chat with a professor, she felt that
> her father had for years harbored an evil, selfish desire to keep what he
> thought should be his.
>
> One day she was challenging her father on his opposition to higher taxes
> on the rich and the need for more government programs. The self-professed
> objectivity proclaimed by her professors had to be the truth and she
> indicated so to her father.
>
> He responded by asking how she was doing in school. Taken aback, she
> answered rather haughtily that she had a 4.0 GPA, and let him know that it
> was tough to maintain, insisting that she was taking a very difficult
> course load and was constantly studying, which left her no time to go out
> and party like other people she knew. She didn't even have time for a
> boyfriend, and didn't really have many college friends because she spent
> all her time studying.
>
> Her father listened and then asked, 'How is your friend Audrey doing?' She
> replied, 'Audrey is barely getting by. All she takes are easy classes, she
> never studies, and she barely has a 2.0 GPA. She is so popular on campus;
> college for her is a blast. She's always invited to all the parties and
> lots of times she doesn't even show up for classes because she's too hung
> over.
>
> Her father asked his daughter, why don't you go to the Dean's office and
> ask him to deduct 1.0 off your GPA and give it to your friend who only has
> a 2.0. That way you will both have a 3.0 GPA and certainly that would be a
> fair and equal distribution of GPA.
>
> The daughter, visibly shocked by her father's suggestion, angrily fired
> back, 'That's a crazy idea, how would that be fair? I've worked really
> hard
> for my grades! I've invested a lot of time, and a lot of hard work! Audrey
> has done next to nothing toward her degree. She played while I worked my
> tail off!'
>
> The father slowly smiled, winked and said gently, 'Welcome to the
> Republican party.'
>
> Regards,
> Platt

[gav]

that's what i really love about this forum (sarcastic undertones): everyone already knows it all. anytime you want to turn on your brain, i'm here digger. and that goes for the rest of you dinosaurs (u know who you are)
.....sorry about the tone but nick's post reminded me that words *can* help, but only when they are real and true.

so this is my truth: you prideful men, you baffle and nauseate me. how can u be so stupid? ....and now it is i that transgress. i know u are not stupid; i have known most of you for years.

...i think it is down to an existential problem: how can u see and feel the implicit unified intelligence of life when u are running the egoic program all the time. it is impossible.

gav's prescription: psychedelics, or an e for the scaredy cats. why do you think they are illegal?...u see through the egoic illusion. no ego NO FEAR...no control. i can't explain it to you...well i can and have but you haven't got the experiential analogues to allow you to comprehend it.

okay most of you think i am crazy for suggesting the above....well sweet...that's a reaction by the way: it ain't you, it's the giant. oooooooh spooky.

or....if you are too old (aldous huxley took lsd on his deathbed by the way), or think u are, then read/listen to eckhart tolle and let the words be rather than reacting against them.

anyway i know you will probably ignore me but u cannae get round it me old dear fruitcakes: u exist to evolve, now or later: your choice my friends.

gav's psychedelic menu:
shrooms: great, use with people u know what they are doing....obviously.
excellent in nature, promotes sense acuity, heightened co-ordination, empathy, intuition and wisdom/humour (inextricably linked).

lsd: varies in potency, again check with people u trust. a little more edgy perhaps than shrooms but very similar and often freaking hilarious. albert hoffman (swiss chemist who synthesised lsd first), on his 100th birthday, implored the world to rediscover the healing potential of lsd: now more than ever. he said that it connects people back to the earth...to nature (the mother is always there kids).

eeeeeees/ mdma: usually no bad effects: very hard to have a bad trip on an eee. promotes empathy and love. mdma is purer and better...usually. slight artificiality to the experience because there is no natural analogue of mdma, unlike lsd (ergot fungus)
...u can tell - the diff is obvious when the comedown kicks in.

dmt: the granddaddy: the chemical produced by the pineal gland at birth and death. when u have the trigger amount you are gone: literally. your separate self is annihilated and the geometric/liquid majesty of reality is all....wow. only did it the once (properly) and when i came back to conditioned reality i laughed so deeply...i could feel the laugh coming from the earth through my bare feet and into my diaphragm. indescribable experience really: excellent grounder.

bytheway...had one go at shrooms and one go at acid this year (both quite disappointing): no eees or dmt. i feel no need for more ingestion at the mo...but i will follow the signs.

all the best.
gav










--- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:

> From: Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:54 PM
> No Gav, the sun and moon.
>
> 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
>
> >
> > life is competition eh peter?
> > well who does gaia compete with? mars?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Peter Corteen
> <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 1:10 AM
> > > life is competition - you can't escape that
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > >
> > > > i don't think the world and capitalism
> can both
> > > survive...one has to go.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008,
> 5:03 PM
> > > > > Call me cynical but I think the world
> much as it
> > > is now will
> > > > > survive this
> > > > > collapse; capitalism will continue.
> Like you, I
> > > think
> > > > > things will be better
> > > > > after the crisis subsides. The Wall
> Street
> > > agreement will
> > > > > go through, the
> > > > > stronger after it's difficult
> conception.
> > > > >
> > > > > It's going to be a long recovery
> but I think
> > > the
> > > > > markets have hit the bottom
> > > > > now.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hallelujah, we're all going to the
> Lord!
> > > > >
> > > > > Peter
> > > > >
> > > > > 2008/9/25 gav
> <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > >
> > > > > > i am dazzled by the glorious
> collapse of the
> > > world!!!!
> > > > > (henry miller)
> > > > > >
> > > > > > yes it is true: i am absorbed,
> intrigued,
> > > awestruck by
> > > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > > dumb greedy beast is terminal and
> ain't
> > > it grand!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > we are on the threshold of
> something
> > > entirely new
> > > > > (....or another world war
> > > > > > i suppose).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > no more isms, no more politicians,
> no more
> > > banker
> > > > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > > > tossers, no more pointless
> academia: we
> > > gonna have to
> > > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > > cemeteries are gonna bloom: the
> fruit of the
> > > dead.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > remember, 'apocalypse'
> means to
> > > pierce the
> > > > > veil; it is not the end -
> > > > > > although it may well be the end of
> time (a
> > > mayan
> > > > > excursis for another time).
> > > > > >
> > > > > > we can see through the projections
> now; we
> > > can
> > > > > recognise the programming:
> > > > > > how we have been drilled to feel
> fear,
> > > shame,
> > > > > guilt...and we can let them
> > > > > > go. they belong to another epoch,
> a distant
> > > > > antediluvian time that will fade
> > > > > > rapidly from the memory as the new
> > > generations live
> > > > > fully and completely
> > > > > > with the earth and with each
> other.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > we are all different; we are all
> equal; we
> > > are all
> > > > > one: gaia.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > rock on
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Make the switch to the
> world's best
> > > email.
> > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > >
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > >
> > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > >
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Make the switch to the world's best
> email.
> > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
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> > > >
> > >
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> > > >
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> > > >
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> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > Archives:
> > >
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> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> >
> > Make the switch to the world's best email.
> Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
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> >
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[MarshaV]

Send care package...



At 08:30 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
>that's what i really love about this forum (sarcastic undertones):
>everyone already knows it all. anytime you want to turn on your
>brain, i'm here digger. and that goes for the rest of you dinosaurs
>(u know who you are)
>.....sorry about the tone but nick's post reminded me that words
>*can* help, but only when they are real and true.
>
>so this is my truth: you prideful men, you baffle and nauseate me.
>how can u be so stupid? ....and now it is i that transgress. i know
>u are not stupid; i have known most of you for years.
>
>...i think it is down to an existential problem: how can u see and
>feel the implicit unified intelligence of life when u are running
>the egoic program all the time. it is impossible.
>
>gav's prescription: psychedelics, or an e for the scaredy cats. why
>do you think they are illegal?...u see through the egoic illusion.
>no ego NO FEAR...no control. i can't explain it to you...well i can
>and have but you haven't got the experiential analogues to allow you
>to comprehend it.
>
>okay most of you think i am crazy for suggesting the above....well
>sweet...that's a reaction by the way: it ain't you, it's the giant.
>oooooooh spooky.
>
>or....if you are too old (aldous huxley took lsd on his deathbed by
>the way), or think u are, then read/listen to eckhart tolle and let
>the words be rather than reacting against them.
>
>anyway i know you will probably ignore me but u cannae get round it
>me old dear fruitcakes: u exist to evolve, now or later: your choice
>my friends.
>
>gav's psychedelic menu:
>shrooms: great, use with people u know what they are doing....obviously.
>excellent in nature, promotes sense acuity, heightened
>co-ordination, empathy, intuition and wisdom/humour (inextricably linked).
>
>lsd: varies in potency, again check with people u trust. a little
>more edgy perhaps than shrooms but very similar and often freaking
>hilarious. albert hoffman (swiss chemist who synthesised lsd first),
>on his 100th birthday, implored the world to rediscover the healing
>potential of lsd: now more than ever. he said that it connects
>people back to the earth...to nature (the mother is always there kids).
>
>eeeeeees/ mdma: usually no bad effects: very hard to have a bad trip
>on an eee. promotes empathy and love. mdma is purer and
>better...usually. slight artificiality to the experience because
>there is no natural analogue of mdma, unlike lsd (ergot fungus)
>...u can tell - the diff is obvious when the comedown kicks in.
>
>dmt: the granddaddy: the chemical produced by the pineal gland at
>birth and death. when u have the trigger amount you are gone:
>literally. your separate self is annihilated and the
>geometric/liquid majesty of reality is all....wow. only did it the
>once (properly) and when i came back to conditioned reality i
>laughed so deeply...i could feel the laugh coming from the earth
>through my bare feet and into my diaphragm. indescribable experience
>really: excellent grounder.
>
>bytheway...had one go at shrooms and one go at acid this year (both
>quite disappointing): no eees or dmt. i feel no need for more
>ingestion at the mo...but i will follow the signs.
>
>all the best.
>gav
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:54 PM
> > No Gav, the sun and moon.
> >
> > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> >
> > >
> > > life is competition eh peter?
> > > well who does gaia compete with? mars?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 1:10 AM
> > > > life is competition - you can't escape that
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > i don't think the world and capitalism
> > can both
> > > > survive...one has to go.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008,
> > 5:03 PM
> > > > > > Call me cynical but I think the world
> > much as it
> > > > is now will
> > > > > > survive this
> > > > > > collapse; capitalism will continue.
> > Like you, I
> > > > think
> > > > > > things will be better
> > > > > > after the crisis subsides. The Wall
> > Street
> > > > agreement will
> > > > > > go through, the
> > > > > > stronger after it's difficult
> > conception.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's going to be a long recovery
> > but I think
> > > > the
> > > > > > markets have hit the bottom
> > > > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hallelujah, we're all going to the
> > Lord!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Peter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2008/9/25 gav
> > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > i am dazzled by the glorious
> > collapse of the
> > > > world!!!!
> > > > > > (henry miller)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > yes it is true: i am absorbed,
> > intrigued,
> > > > awestruck by
> > > > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > > > dumb greedy beast is terminal and
> > ain't
> > > > it grand!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we are on the threshold of
> > something
> > > > entirely new
> > > > > > (....or another world war
> > > > > > > i suppose).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > no more isms, no more politicians,
> > no more
> > > > banker
> > > > > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > > > > tossers, no more pointless
> > academia: we
> > > > gonna have to
> > > > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > > > cemeteries are gonna bloom: the
> > fruit of the
> > > > dead.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > remember, 'apocalypse'
> > means to
> > > > pierce the
> > > > > > veil; it is not the end -
> > > > > > > although it may well be the end of
> > time (a
> > > > mayan
> > > > > > excursis for another time).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we can see through the projections
> > now; we
> > > > can
> > > > > > recognise the programming:
> > > > > > > how we have been drilled to feel
> > fear,
> > > > shame,
> > > > > > guilt...and we can let them
> > > > > > > go. they belong to another epoch,
> > a distant
> > > > > > antediluvian time that will fade
> > > > > > > rapidly from the memory as the new
> > > > generations live
> > > > > > fully and completely
> > > > > > > with the earth and with each
> > other.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we are all different; we are all
> > equal; we
> > > > are all
> > > > > > one: gaia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > rock on
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Make the switch to the
> > world's best
> > > > email.
> > > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > >
> > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > >
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Make the switch to the world's best
> > email.
> > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > Archives:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > >
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > >
> > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > Archives:
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > >
> > >
> > > Make the switch to the world's best email.
> > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > Archives:
> > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
> Make the switch to the world&#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7
> Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
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>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

.
.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

[Peter Corteen]

HI gav, I tried some lsd three times when i was much younger - but I didn't
swallow it!

Smoked a fair amount of the old sensimile too.

I think you need more - you need to chill out - you sound a bit hyper.

Don't identify so much with your views.

-Peter



2008/9/27 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>

> that's what i really love about this forum (sarcastic undertones): everyone
> already knows it all. anytime you want to turn on your brain, i'm here
> digger. and that goes for the rest of you dinosaurs (u know who you are)
> .....sorry about the tone but nick's post reminded me that words *can*
> help, but only when they are real and true.
>
> so this is my truth: you prideful men, you baffle and nauseate me. how can
> u be so stupid? ....and now it is i that transgress. i know u are not
> stupid; i have known most of you for years.
>
> ...i think it is down to an existential problem: how can u see and feel the
> implicit unified intelligence of life when u are running the egoic program
> all the time. it is impossible.
>
> gav's prescription: psychedelics, or an e for the scaredy cats. why do you
> think they are illegal?...u see through the egoic illusion. no ego NO
> FEAR...no control. i can't explain it to you...well i can and have but you
> haven't got the experiential analogues to allow you to comprehend it.
>
> okay most of you think i am crazy for suggesting the above....well
> sweet...that's a reaction by the way: it ain't you, it's the giant. oooooooh
> spooky.
>
> or....if you are too old (aldous huxley took lsd on his deathbed by the
> way), or think u are, then read/listen to eckhart tolle and let the words be
> rather than reacting against them.
>
> anyway i know you will probably ignore me but u cannae get round it me old
> dear fruitcakes: u exist to evolve, now or later: your choice my friends.
>
> gav's psychedelic menu:
> shrooms: great, use with people u know what they are doing....obviously.
> excellent in nature, promotes sense acuity, heightened co-ordination,
> empathy, intuition and wisdom/humour (inextricably linked).
>
> lsd: varies in potency, again check with people u trust. a little more edgy
> perhaps than shrooms but very similar and often freaking hilarious. albert
> hoffman (swiss chemist who synthesised lsd first), on his 100th birthday,
> implored the world to rediscover the healing potential of lsd: now more than
> ever. he said that it connects people back to the earth...to nature (the
> mother is always there kids).
>
> eeeeeees/ mdma: usually no bad effects: very hard to have a bad trip on an
> eee. promotes empathy and love. mdma is purer and better...usually. slight
> artificiality to the experience because there is no natural analogue of
> mdma, unlike lsd (ergot fungus)
> ...u can tell - the diff is obvious when the comedown kicks in.
>
> dmt: the granddaddy: the chemical produced by the pineal gland at birth and
> death. when u have the trigger amount you are gone: literally. your separate
> self is annihilated and the geometric/liquid majesty of reality is
> all....wow. only did it the once (properly) and when i came back to
> conditioned reality i laughed so deeply...i could feel the laugh coming from
> the earth through my bare feet and into my diaphragm. indescribable
> experience really: excellent grounder.
>
> bytheway...had one go at shrooms and one go at acid this year (both quite
> disappointing): no eees or dmt. i feel no need for more ingestion at the
> mo...but i will follow the signs.
>
> all the best.
> gav
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> > From: Peter Corteen <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:54 PM
> > No Gav, the sun and moon.
> >
> > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> >
> > >
> > > life is competition eh peter?
> > > well who does gaia compete with? mars?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 1:10 AM
> > > > life is competition - you can't escape that
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > > i don't think the world and capitalism
> > can both
> > > > survive...one has to go.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > Received: Friday, 26 September, 2008,
> > 5:03 PM
> > > > > > Call me cynical but I think the world
> > much as it
> > > > is now will
> > > > > > survive this
> > > > > > collapse; capitalism will continue.
> > Like you, I
> > > > think
> > > > > > things will be better
> > > > > > after the crisis subsides. The Wall
> > Street
> > > > agreement will
> > > > > > go through, the
> > > > > > stronger after it's difficult
> > conception.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > It's going to be a long recovery
> > but I think
> > > > the
> > > > > > markets have hit the bottom
> > > > > > now.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Hallelujah, we're all going to the
> > Lord!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Peter
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2008/9/25 gav
> > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > i am dazzled by the glorious
> > collapse of the
> > > > world!!!!
> > > > > > (henry miller)
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > yes it is true: i am absorbed,
> > intrigued,
> > > > awestruck by
> > > > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > > > dumb greedy beast is terminal and
> > ain't
> > > > it grand!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we are on the threshold of
> > something
> > > > entirely new
> > > > > > (....or another world war
> > > > > > > i suppose).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > no more isms, no more politicians,
> > no more
> > > > banker
> > > > > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > > > > tossers, no more pointless
> > academia: we
> > > > gonna have to
> > > > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > > > cemeteries are gonna bloom: the
> > fruit of the
> > > > dead.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > remember, 'apocalypse'
> > means to
> > > > pierce the
> > > > > > veil; it is not the end -
> > > > > > > although it may well be the end of
> > time (a
> > > > mayan
> > > > > > excursis for another time).
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we can see through the projections
> > now; we
> > > > can
> > > > > > recognise the programming:
> > > > > > > how we have been drilled to feel
> > fear,
> > > > shame,
> > > > > > guilt...and we can let them
> > > > > > > go. they belong to another epoch,
> > a distant
> > > > > > antediluvian time that will fade
> > > > > > > rapidly from the memory as the new
> > > > generations live
> > > > > > fully and completely
> > > > > > > with the earth and with each
> > other.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > we are all different; we are all
> > equal; we
> > > > are all
> > > > > > one: gaia.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > rock on
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Make the switch to the
> > world's best
> > > > email.
> > > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > >
> > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > >
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Make the switch to the world's best
> > email.
> > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > Archives:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > >
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > >
> > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > >
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > Archives:
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> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > >
> > >
> > > Make the switch to the world's best email.
> > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
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> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
> Make the switch to the world's best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
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>

[gav]

that reminds me of something: the other day i had an archimedes in the bath and in towel, dripping, tried to excavate a vein of narrative, with much concentration. the process took about 30 minutes max, and i was sedentary of course, but that evening i was ravenous: ate like a horsey man. must have really fired up the brain...for a change.


--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:

> From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> Subject: [MD] Science: Medicine?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:29 PM
> Now this made me laugh...
>
> http://www.livescience.com/health/080904-brain-food.html
>
> Such is the state of science.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> .
> .
>
> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land
> among the stars.........
> .
> .
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/


Make the switch to the world&#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7 Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail

[MarshaV]

At 08:36 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
>that reminds me of something: the other day i had an archimedes in
>the bath and in towel, dripping, tried to excavate a vein of
>narrative, with much concentration. the process took about 30
>minutes max, and i was sedentary of course, but that evening i was
>ravenous: ate like a horsey man. must have really fired up the
>brain...for a change.

Gav,

I haven't understood one word of the above.

Marsha





>--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
>
> > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > Subject: [MD] Science: Medicine?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:29 PM
> > Now this made me laugh...
> >
> > http://www.livescience.com/health/080904-brain-food.html
> >
> > Such is the state of science.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > .
> > .
> >
> > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land
> > among the stars.........
> > .
> > .
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
>
> Make the switch to the world&#39;s best email. Get Yahoo!7
> Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
>Moq_Discuss mailing list
>Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>Archives:
>http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/

.
.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

[gav]

that was a care package

--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:

> From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:36 PM
> Send care package...
>
>
>
> At 08:30 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
> >that's what i really love about this forum
> (sarcastic undertones):
> >everyone already knows it all. anytime you want to turn
> on your
> >brain, i'm here digger. and that goes for the rest
> of you dinosaurs
> >(u know who you are)
> >.....sorry about the tone but nick's post reminded
> me that words
> >*can* help, but only when they are real and true.
> >
> >so this is my truth: you prideful men, you baffle and
> nauseate me.
> >how can u be so stupid? ....and now it is i that
> transgress. i know
> >u are not stupid; i have known most of you for years.
> >
> >...i think it is down to an existential problem: how
> can u see and
> >feel the implicit unified intelligence of life when u
> are running
> >the egoic program all the time. it is impossible.
> >
> >gav's prescription: psychedelics, or an e for the
> scaredy cats. why
> >do you think they are illegal?...u see through the
> egoic illusion.
> >no ego NO FEAR...no control. i can't explain it to
> you...well i can
> >and have but you haven't got the experiential
> analogues to allow you
> >to comprehend it.
> >
> >okay most of you think i am crazy for suggesting the
> above....well
> >sweet...that's a reaction by the way: it ain't
> you, it's the giant.
> >oooooooh spooky.
> >
> >or....if you are too old (aldous huxley took lsd on his
> deathbed by
> >the way), or think u are, then read/listen to eckhart
> tolle and let
> >the words be rather than reacting against them.
> >
> >anyway i know you will probably ignore me but u cannae
> get round it
> >me old dear fruitcakes: u exist to evolve, now or
> later: your choice
> >my friends.
> >
> >gav's psychedelic menu:
> >shrooms: great, use with people u know what they are
> doing....obviously.
> >excellent in nature, promotes sense acuity, heightened
> >co-ordination, empathy, intuition and wisdom/humour
> (inextricably linked).
> >
> >lsd: varies in potency, again check with people u
> trust. a little
> >more edgy perhaps than shrooms but very similar and
> often freaking
> >hilarious. albert hoffman (swiss chemist who
> synthesised lsd first),
> >on his 100th birthday, implored the world to rediscover
> the healing
> >potential of lsd: now more than ever. he said that it
> connects
> >people back to the earth...to nature (the mother is
> always there kids).
> >
> >eeeeeees/ mdma: usually no bad effects: very hard to
> have a bad trip
> >on an eee. promotes empathy and love. mdma is purer and
>
> >better...usually. slight artificiality to the
> experience because
> >there is no natural analogue of mdma, unlike lsd (ergot
> fungus)
> >...u can tell - the diff is obvious when the comedown
> kicks in.
> >
> >dmt: the granddaddy: the chemical produced by the
> pineal gland at
> >birth and death. when u have the trigger amount you are
> gone:
> >literally. your separate self is annihilated and the
> >geometric/liquid majesty of reality is all....wow. only
> did it the
> >once (properly) and when i came back to conditioned
> reality i
> >laughed so deeply...i could feel the laugh coming from
> the earth
> >through my bare feet and into my diaphragm.
> indescribable experience
> >really: excellent grounder.
> >
> >bytheway...had one go at shrooms and one go at acid
> this year (both
> >quite disappointing): no eees or dmt. i feel no need
> for more
> >ingestion at the mo...but i will follow the signs.
> >
> >all the best.
> >gav
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > From: Peter Corteen
> <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:54 PM
> > > No Gav, the sun and moon.
> > >
> > > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > >
> > > >
> > > > life is competition eh peter?
> > > > well who does gaia compete with? mars?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008,
> 1:10 AM
> > > > > life is competition - you can't
> escape that
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > 2008/9/26 gav
> <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > >
> > > > > > i don't think the world and
> capitalism
> > > can both
> > > > > survive...one has to go.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD]
> apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > Received: Friday, 26
> September, 2008,
> > > 5:03 PM
> > > > > > > Call me cynical but I think
> the world
> > > much as it
> > > > > is now will
> > > > > > > survive this
> > > > > > > collapse; capitalism will
> continue.
> > > Like you, I
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > things will be better
> > > > > > > after the crisis subsides.
> The Wall
> > > Street
> > > > > agreement will
> > > > > > > go through, the
> > > > > > > stronger after it's
> difficult
> > > conception.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > It's going to be a long
> recovery
> > > but I think
> > > > > the
> > > > > > > markets have hit the bottom
> > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Hallelujah, we're all
> going to the
> > > Lord!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Peter
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2008/9/25 gav
> > > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i am dazzled by the
> glorious
> > > collapse of the
> > > > > world!!!!
> > > > > > > (henry miller)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > yes it is true: i am
> absorbed,
> > > intrigued,
> > > > > awestruck by
> > > > > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > > > > dumb greedy beast is
> terminal and
> > > ain't
> > > > > it grand!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > we are on the threshold
> of
> > > something
> > > > > entirely new
> > > > > > > (....or another world war
> > > > > > > > i suppose).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > no more isms, no more
> politicians,
> > > no more
> > > > > banker
> > > > > > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > > > > > tossers, no more
> pointless
> > > academia: we
> > > > > gonna have to
> > > > > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > > > > cemeteries are gonna
> bloom: the
> > > fruit of the
> > > > > dead.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > remember,
> 'apocalypse'
> > > means to
> > > > > pierce the
> > > > > > > veil; it is not the end -
> > > > > > > > although it may well be
> the end of
> > > time (a
> > > > > mayan
> > > > > > > excursis for another time).
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > we can see through the
> projections
> > > now; we
> > > > > can
> > > > > > > recognise the programming:
> > > > > > > > how we have been drilled
> to feel
> > > fear,
> > > > > shame,
> > > > > > > guilt...and we can let them
> > > > > > > > go. they belong to
> another epoch,
> > > a distant
> > > > > > > antediluvian time that will
> fade
> > > > > > > > rapidly from the memory
> as the new
> > > > > generations live
> > > > > > > fully and completely
> > > > > > > > with the earth and with
> each
> > > other.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > we are all different; we
> are all
> > > equal; we
> > > > > are all
> > > > > > > one: gaia.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > rock on
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Make the switch to
> the
> > > world's best
> > > > > email.
> > > > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > > >
> http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing
> etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > >
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Make the switch to the
> world's best
> > > email.
> > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > > > >
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> > >
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> > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
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> > > > > >
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > >
> > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > >
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> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Make the switch to the world's best
> email.
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> >
> >
> > Make the switch to the world&#39;s best
> email. Get Yahoo!7
> > Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
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>
> .
> .
>
> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land
> among the stars.........
> .
> .
>
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[MarshaV]

Gav,

Of course, in every sense of the words it was a care package and
should be taken seriously. I agree with you.

I just don't run with the lsd crowd. Darn...

Marsha



At 08:39 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:

>that was a care package
>
>--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
>
> > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:36 PM
> > Send care package...
> >
> >
> >
> > At 08:30 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
> > >that's what i really love about this forum
> > (sarcastic undertones):
> > >everyone already knows it all. anytime you want to turn
> > on your
> > >brain, i'm here digger. and that goes for the rest
> > of you dinosaurs
> > >(u know who you are)
> > >.....sorry about the tone but nick's post reminded
> > me that words
> > >*can* help, but only when they are real and true.
> > >
> > >so this is my truth: you prideful men, you baffle and
> > nauseate me.
> > >how can u be so stupid? ....and now it is i that
> > transgress. i know
> > >u are not stupid; i have known most of you for years.
> > >
> > >...i think it is down to an existential problem: how
> > can u see and
> > >feel the implicit unified intelligence of life when u
> > are running
> > >the egoic program all the time. it is impossible.
> > >
> > >gav's prescription: psychedelics, or an e for the
> > scaredy cats. why
> > >do you think they are illegal?...u see through the
> > egoic illusion.
> > >no ego NO FEAR...no control. i can't explain it to
> > you...well i can
> > >and have but you haven't got the experiential
> > analogues to allow you
> > >to comprehend it.
> > >
> > >okay most of you think i am crazy for suggesting the
> > above....well
> > >sweet...that's a reaction by the way: it ain't
> > you, it's the giant.
> > >oooooooh spooky.
> > >
> > >or....if you are too old (aldous huxley took lsd on his
> > deathbed by
> > >the way), or think u are, then read/listen to eckhart
> > tolle and let
> > >the words be rather than reacting against them.
> > >
> > >anyway i know you will probably ignore me but u cannae
> > get round it
> > >me old dear fruitcakes: u exist to evolve, now or
> > later: your choice
> > >my friends.
> > >
> > >gav's psychedelic menu:
> > >shrooms: great, use with people u know what they are
> > doing....obviously.
> > >excellent in nature, promotes sense acuity, heightened
> > >co-ordination, empathy, intuition and wisdom/humour
> > (inextricably linked).
> > >
> > >lsd: varies in potency, again check with people u
> > trust. a little
> > >more edgy perhaps than shrooms but very similar and
> > often freaking
> > >hilarious. albert hoffman (swiss chemist who
> > synthesised lsd first),
> > >on his 100th birthday, implored the world to rediscover
> > the healing
> > >potential of lsd: now more than ever. he said that it
> > connects
> > >people back to the earth...to nature (the mother is
> > always there kids).
> > >
> > >eeeeeees/ mdma: usually no bad effects: very hard to
> > have a bad trip
> > >on an eee. promotes empathy and love. mdma is purer and
> >
> > >better...usually. slight artificiality to the
> > experience because
> > >there is no natural analogue of mdma, unlike lsd (ergot
> > fungus)
> > >...u can tell - the diff is obvious when the comedown
> > kicks in.
> > >
> > >dmt: the granddaddy: the chemical produced by the
> > pineal gland at
> > >birth and death. when u have the trigger amount you are
> > gone:
> > >literally. your separate self is annihilated and the
> > >geometric/liquid majesty of reality is all....wow. only
> > did it the
> > >once (properly) and when i came back to conditioned
> > reality i
> > >laughed so deeply...i could feel the laugh coming from
> > the earth
> > >through my bare feet and into my diaphragm.
> > indescribable experience
> > >really: excellent grounder.
> > >
> > >bytheway...had one go at shrooms and one go at acid
> > this year (both
> > >quite disappointing): no eees or dmt. i feel no need
> > for more
> > >ingestion at the mo...but i will follow the signs.
> > >
> > >all the best.
> > >gav
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:54 PM
> > > > No Gav, the sun and moon.
> > > >
> > > > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > life is competition eh peter?
> > > > > well who does gaia compete with? mars?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008,
> > 1:10 AM
> > > > > > life is competition - you can't
> > escape that
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2008/9/26 gav
> > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > i don't think the world and
> > capitalism
> > > > can both
> > > > > > survive...one has to go.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD]
> > apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > > Received: Friday, 26
> > September, 2008,
> > > > 5:03 PM
> > > > > > > > Call me cynical but I think
> > the world
> > > > much as it
> > > > > > is now will
> > > > > > > > survive this
> > > > > > > > collapse; capitalism will
> > continue.
> > > > Like you, I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > things will be better
> > > > > > > > after the crisis subsides.
> > The Wall
> > > > Street
> > > > > > agreement will
> > > > > > > > go through, the
> > > > > > > > stronger after it's
> > difficult
> > > > conception.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's going to be a long
> > recovery
> > > > but I think
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > markets have hit the bottom
> > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hallelujah, we're all
> > going to the
> > > > Lord!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Peter
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2008/9/25 gav
> > > > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > i am dazzled by the
> > glorious
> > > > collapse of the
> > > > > > world!!!!
> > > > > > > > (henry miller)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > yes it is true: i am
> > absorbed,
> > > > intrigued,
> > > > > > awestruck by
> > > > > > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > > > > > dumb greedy beast is
> > terminal and
> > > > ain't
> > > > > > it grand!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we are on the threshold
> > of
> > > > something
> > > > > > entirely new
> > > > > > > > (....or another world war
> > > > > > > > > i suppose).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > no more isms, no more
> > politicians,
> > > > no more
> > > > > > banker
> > > > > > > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > > > > > > tossers, no more
> > pointless
> > > > academia: we
> > > > > > gonna have to
> > > > > > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > > > > > cemeteries are gonna
> > bloom: the
> > > > fruit of the
> > > > > > dead.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > remember,
> > 'apocalypse'
> > > > means to
> > > > > > pierce the
> > > > > > > > veil; it is not the end -
> > > > > > > > > although it may well be
> > the end of
> > > > time (a
> > > > > > mayan
> > > > > > > > excursis for another time).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we can see through the
> > projections
> > > > now; we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > recognise the programming:
> > > > > > > > > how we have been drilled
> > to feel
> > > > fear,
> > > > > > shame,
> > > > > > > > guilt...and we can let them
> > > > > > > > > go. they belong to
> > another epoch,
> > > > a distant
> > > > > > > > antediluvian time that will
> > fade
> > > > > > > > > rapidly from the memory
> > as the new
> > > > > > generations live
> > > > > > > > fully and completely
> > > > > > > > > with the earth and with
> > each
> > > > other.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we are all different; we
> > are all
> > > > equal; we
> > > > > > are all
> > > > > > > > one: gaia.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > rock on
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Make the switch to
> > the
> > > > world's best
> > > > > > email.
> > > > > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing
> > etc.
> > > > > > > > >
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> > > >
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> > >
> > >
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.
.

Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land among the stars.........
.
.

[gav]

pirsig finishes lila with the idea of good as a noun (rather than an adjective i suppose)...but i think it is (primarily) a verb...what am i missing?
dave?

--- On Sat, 27/9/08, gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au> wrote:

> From: gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:39 PM
> that was a care package
>
> --- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> wrote:
>
> > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:36 PM
> > Send care package...
> >
> >
> >
> > At 08:30 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
> > >that's what i really love about this forum
> > (sarcastic undertones):
> > >everyone already knows it all. anytime you want to
> turn
> > on your
> > >brain, i'm here digger. and that goes for the
> rest
> > of you dinosaurs
> > >(u know who you are)
> > >.....sorry about the tone but nick's post
> reminded
> > me that words
> > >*can* help, but only when they are real and true.
> > >
> > >so this is my truth: you prideful men, you baffle
> and
> > nauseate me.
> > >how can u be so stupid? ....and now it is i that
> > transgress. i know
> > >u are not stupid; i have known most of you for
> years.
> > >
> > >...i think it is down to an existential problem:
> how
> > can u see and
> > >feel the implicit unified intelligence of life
> when u
> > are running
> > >the egoic program all the time. it is impossible.
> > >
> > >gav's prescription: psychedelics, or an e for
> the
> > scaredy cats. why
> > >do you think they are illegal?...u see through the
> > egoic illusion.
> > >no ego NO FEAR...no control. i can't explain
> it to
> > you...well i can
> > >and have but you haven't got the experiential
> > analogues to allow you
> > >to comprehend it.
> > >
> > >okay most of you think i am crazy for suggesting
> the
> > above....well
> > >sweet...that's a reaction by the way: it
> ain't
> > you, it's the giant.
> > >oooooooh spooky.
> > >
> > >or....if you are too old (aldous huxley took lsd
> on his
> > deathbed by
> > >the way), or think u are, then read/listen to
> eckhart
> > tolle and let
> > >the words be rather than reacting against them.
> > >
> > >anyway i know you will probably ignore me but u
> cannae
> > get round it
> > >me old dear fruitcakes: u exist to evolve, now or
> > later: your choice
> > >my friends.
> > >
> > >gav's psychedelic menu:
> > >shrooms: great, use with people u know what they
> are
> > doing....obviously.
> > >excellent in nature, promotes sense acuity,
> heightened
> > >co-ordination, empathy, intuition and
> wisdom/humour
> > (inextricably linked).
> > >
> > >lsd: varies in potency, again check with people u
> > trust. a little
> > >more edgy perhaps than shrooms but very similar
> and
> > often freaking
> > >hilarious. albert hoffman (swiss chemist who
> > synthesised lsd first),
> > >on his 100th birthday, implored the world to
> rediscover
> > the healing
> > >potential of lsd: now more than ever. he said that
> it
> > connects
> > >people back to the earth...to nature (the mother
> is
> > always there kids).
> > >
> > >eeeeeees/ mdma: usually no bad effects: very hard
> to
> > have a bad trip
> > >on an eee. promotes empathy and love. mdma is
> purer and
> >
> > >better...usually. slight artificiality to the
> > experience because
> > >there is no natural analogue of mdma, unlike lsd
> (ergot
> > fungus)
> > >...u can tell - the diff is obvious when the
> comedown
> > kicks in.
> > >
> > >dmt: the granddaddy: the chemical produced by the
> > pineal gland at
> > >birth and death. when u have the trigger amount
> you are
> > gone:
> > >literally. your separate self is annihilated and
> the
> > >geometric/liquid majesty of reality is all....wow.
> only
> > did it the
> > >once (properly) and when i came back to
> conditioned
> > reality i
> > >laughed so deeply...i could feel the laugh coming
> from
> > the earth
> > >through my bare feet and into my diaphragm.
> > indescribable experience
> > >really: excellent grounder.
> > >
> > >bytheway...had one go at shrooms and one go at
> acid
> > this year (both
> > >quite disappointing): no eees or dmt. i feel no
> need
> > for more
> > >ingestion at the mo...but i will follow the signs.
> > >
> > >all the best.
> > >gav
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 8:54
> PM
> > > > No Gav, the sun and moon.
> > > >
> > > > 2008/9/26 gav <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > life is competition eh peter?
> > > > > well who does gaia compete with? mars?
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD]
> apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September,
> 2008,
> > 1:10 AM
> > > > > > life is competition - you
> can't
> > escape that
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > 2008/9/26 gav
> > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > i don't think the world
> and
> > capitalism
> > > > can both
> > > > > > survive...one has to go.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08, Peter
> Corteen
> > > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD]
> > apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > > > To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > > Received: Friday, 26
> > September, 2008,
> > > > 5:03 PM
> > > > > > > > Call me cynical but I
> think
> > the world
> > > > much as it
> > > > > > is now will
> > > > > > > > survive this
> > > > > > > > collapse; capitalism
> will
> > continue.
> > > > Like you, I
> > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > things will be better
> > > > > > > > after the crisis
> subsides.
> > The Wall
> > > > Street
> > > > > > agreement will
> > > > > > > > go through, the
> > > > > > > > stronger after it's
> > difficult
> > > > conception.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > It's going to be a
> long
> > recovery
> > > > but I think
> > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > markets have hit the
> bottom
> > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Hallelujah, we're
> all
> > going to the
> > > > Lord!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Peter
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 2008/9/25 gav
> > > > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > i am dazzled by the
> > glorious
> > > > collapse of the
> > > > > > world!!!!
> > > > > > > > (henry miller)
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > yes it is true: i
> am
> > absorbed,
> > > > intrigued,
> > > > > > awestruck by
> > > > > > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > > > > > dumb greedy beast
> is
> > terminal and
> > > > ain't
> > > > > > it grand!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we are on the
> threshold
> > of
> > > > something
> > > > > > entirely new
> > > > > > > > (....or another world
> war
> > > > > > > > > i suppose).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > no more isms, no
> more
> > politicians,
> > > > no more
> > > > > > banker
> > > > > > > > wankers, no more ceo
> > > > > > > > > tossers, no more
> > pointless
> > > > academia: we
> > > > > > gonna have to
> > > > > > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > > > > > cemeteries are
> gonna
> > bloom: the
> > > > fruit of the
> > > > > > dead.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > remember,
> > 'apocalypse'
> > > > means to
> > > > > > pierce the
> > > > > > > > veil; it is not the end
> -
> > > > > > > > > although it may
> well be
> > the end of
> > > > time (a
> > > > > > mayan
> > > > > > > > excursis for another
> time).
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we can see through
> the
> > projections
> > > > now; we
> > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > recognise the
> programming:
> > > > > > > > > how we have been
> drilled
> > to feel
> > > > fear,
> > > > > > shame,
> > > > > > > > guilt...and we can let
> them
> > > > > > > > > go. they belong to
> > another epoch,
> > > > a distant
> > > > > > > > antediluvian time that
> will
> > fade
> > > > > > > > > rapidly from the
> memory
> > as the new
> > > > > > generations live
> > > > > > > > fully and completely
> > > > > > > > > with the earth and
> with
> > each
> > > > other.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > we are all
> different; we
> > are all
> > > > equal; we
> > > > > > are all
> > > > > > > > one: gaia.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > rock on
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Make the
> switch to
> > the
> > > > world's best
> > > > > > email.
> > > > > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > > > >
> > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing
> list
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> Unsubscribing
> > etc.
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> > > > > >
> > > >
> >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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> > > >
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> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Make the switch to the
> > world's best
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> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Make the switch to the world's
> best
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> > >
> > >
> > > Make the switch to the world&#39;s best
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> >
> > .
> > .
> >
> > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land
> > among the stars.........
> > .
> > .
> >
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[david buchanan]

gav said:
pirsig finishes lila with the idea of good as a noun (rather than an adjective i suppose)...but i think it is (primarily) a verb...what am i missing?

dmb says:
Yea, he's just saying that Quality is not a property or attribute of something more primary. It's not just a feature of objects nor is it merely in the eye of the beholder. And if were talking about Dynamic Quality, I can see how it would make sense to think of it as a verb. If DQ is the primary empirical reality - as opposed to subjects and objects, which are static and secondary - its not quite right to say that Quality is a noun because it's not a person, place or thing. It's the immediate flux of experience, something we suffer, enjoy, endure, go through and those terms sound like verbs to me, an action or state of being.



Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land with humongous scars.



_________________________________________________________________
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[gav]

me neither....it's for the young-uns really, but eckhart is spot on.
geez i can't handle beer these days let alone acid.


--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:

> From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 11:02 PM
> Gav,
>
> Of course, in every sense of the words it was a care
> package and
> should be taken seriously. I agree with you.
>
> I just don't run with the lsd crowd. Darn...
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
> At 08:39 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
>
> >that was a care package
> >
> >--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV
> <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:36 PM
> > > Send care package...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > At 08:30 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
> > > >that's what i really love about this
> forum
> > > (sarcastic undertones):
> > > >everyone already knows it all. anytime you
> want to turn
> > > on your
> > > >brain, i'm here digger. and that goes for
> the rest
> > > of you dinosaurs
> > > >(u know who you are)
> > > >.....sorry about the tone but nick's post
> reminded
> > > me that words
> > > >*can* help, but only when they are real and
> true.
> > > >
> > > >so this is my truth: you prideful men, you
> baffle and
> > > nauseate me.
> > > >how can u be so stupid? ....and now it is i
> that
> > > transgress. i know
> > > >u are not stupid; i have known most of you
> for years.
> > > >
> > > >...i think it is down to an existential
> problem: how
> > > can u see and
> > > >feel the implicit unified intelligence of
> life when u
> > > are running
> > > >the egoic program all the time. it is
> impossible.
> > > >
> > > >gav's prescription: psychedelics, or an e
> for the
> > > scaredy cats. why
> > > >do you think they are illegal?...u see
> through the
> > > egoic illusion.
> > > >no ego NO FEAR...no control. i can't
> explain it to
> > > you...well i can
> > > >and have but you haven't got the
> experiential
> > > analogues to allow you
> > > >to comprehend it.
> > > >
> > > >okay most of you think i am crazy for
> suggesting the
> > > above....well
> > > >sweet...that's a reaction by the way: it
> ain't
> > > you, it's the giant.
> > > >oooooooh spooky.
> > > >
> > > >or....if you are too old (aldous huxley took
> lsd on his
> > > deathbed by
> > > >the way), or think u are, then read/listen to
> eckhart
> > > tolle and let
> > > >the words be rather than reacting against
> them.
> > > >
> > > >anyway i know you will probably ignore me but
> u cannae
> > > get round it
> > > >me old dear fruitcakes: u exist to evolve,
> now or
> > > later: your choice
> > > >my friends.
> > > >
> > > >gav's psychedelic menu:
> > > >shrooms: great, use with people u know what
> they are
> > > doing....obviously.
> > > >excellent in nature, promotes sense acuity,
> heightened
> > > >co-ordination, empathy, intuition and
> wisdom/humour
> > > (inextricably linked).
> > > >
> > > >lsd: varies in potency, again check with
> people u
> > > trust. a little
> > > >more edgy perhaps than shrooms but very
> similar and
> > > often freaking
> > > >hilarious. albert hoffman (swiss chemist who
> > > synthesised lsd first),
> > > >on his 100th birthday, implored the world to
> rediscover
> > > the healing
> > > >potential of lsd: now more than ever. he said
> that it
> > > connects
> > > >people back to the earth...to nature (the
> mother is
> > > always there kids).
> > > >
> > > >eeeeeees/ mdma: usually no bad effects: very
> hard to
> > > have a bad trip
> > > >on an eee. promotes empathy and love. mdma is
> purer and
> > >
> > > >better...usually. slight artificiality to the
> > > experience because
> > > >there is no natural analogue of mdma, unlike
> lsd (ergot
> > > fungus)
> > > >...u can tell - the diff is obvious when the
> comedown
> > > kicks in.
> > > >
> > > >dmt: the granddaddy: the chemical produced by
> the
> > > pineal gland at
> > > >birth and death. when u have the trigger
> amount you are
> > > gone:
> > > >literally. your separate self is annihilated
> and the
> > > >geometric/liquid majesty of reality is
> all....wow. only
> > > did it the
> > > >once (properly) and when i came back to
> conditioned
> > > reality i
> > > >laughed so deeply...i could feel the laugh
> coming from
> > > the earth
> > > >through my bare feet and into my diaphragm.
> > > indescribable experience
> > > >really: excellent grounder.
> > > >
> > > >bytheway...had one go at shrooms and one go
> at acid
> > > this year (both
> > > >quite disappointing): no eees or dmt. i feel
> no need
> > > for more
> > > >ingestion at the mo...but i will follow the
> signs.
> > > >
> > > >all the best.
> > > >gav
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >--- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > Subject: Re: [MD] apocalypse...now?
> > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008,
> 8:54 PM
> > > > > No Gav, the sun and moon.
> > > > >
> > > > > 2008/9/26 gav
> <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > life is competition eh peter?
> > > > > > well who does gaia compete with?
> mars?
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- On Sat, 27/9/08, Peter Corteen
> > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > > <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD]
> apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > Received: Saturday, 27
> September, 2008,
> > > 1:10 AM
> > > > > > > life is competition - you
> can't
> > > escape that
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > 2008/9/26 gav
> > > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > i don't think the
> world and
> > > capitalism
> > > > > can both
> > > > > > > survive...one has to go.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > --- On Fri, 26/9/08,
> Peter Corteen
> > > > > > >
> <psigenics at googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > From: Peter Corteen
> > > > > > >
> <psigenics at googlemail.com>
> > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: [MD]
> > > apocalypse...now?
> > > > > > > > > To:
> moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > > > Received: Friday,
> 26
> > > September, 2008,
> > > > > 5:03 PM
> > > > > > > > > Call me cynical but
> I think
> > > the world
> > > > > much as it
> > > > > > > is now will
> > > > > > > > > survive this
> > > > > > > > > collapse;
> capitalism will
> > > continue.
> > > > > Like you, I
> > > > > > > think
> > > > > > > > > things will be
> better
> > > > > > > > > after the crisis
> subsides.
> > > The Wall
> > > > > Street
> > > > > > > agreement will
> > > > > > > > > go through, the
> > > > > > > > > stronger after
> it's
> > > difficult
> > > > > conception.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > It's going to
> be a long
> > > recovery
> > > > > but I think
> > > > > > > the
> > > > > > > > > markets have hit
> the bottom
> > > > > > > > > now.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Hallelujah,
> we're all
> > > going to the
> > > > > Lord!
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Peter
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > 2008/9/25 gav
> > > > > <gav_gc at yahoo.com.au>
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > i am dazzled
> by the
> > > glorious
> > > > > collapse of the
> > > > > > > world!!!!
> > > > > > > > > (henry miller)
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > yes it is
> true: i am
> > > absorbed,
> > > > > intrigued,
> > > > > > > awestruck by
> > > > > > > > > the collapse...the
> > > > > > > > > > dumb greedy
> beast is
> > > terminal and
> > > > > ain't
> > > > > > > it grand!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > we are on the
> threshold
> > > of
> > > > > something
> > > > > > > entirely new
> > > > > > > > > (....or another
> world war
> > > > > > > > > > i suppose).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > no more isms,
> no more
> > > politicians,
> > > > > no more
> > > > > > > banker
> > > > > > > > > wankers, no more
> ceo
> > > > > > > > > > tossers, no
> more
> > > pointless
> > > > > academia: we
> > > > > > > gonna have to
> > > > > > > > > work boy!!!! the
> > > > > > > > > > cemeteries are
> gonna
> > > bloom: the
> > > > > fruit of the
> > > > > > > dead.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > remember,
> > > 'apocalypse'
> > > > > means to
> > > > > > > pierce the
> > > > > > > > > veil; it is not the
> end -
> > > > > > > > > > although it
> may well be
> > > the end of
> > > > > time (a
> > > > > > > mayan
> > > > > > > > > excursis for
> another time).
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > we can see
> through the
> > > projections
> > > > > now; we
> > > > > > > can
> > > > > > > > > recognise the
> programming:
> > > > > > > > > > how we have
> been drilled
> > > to feel
> > > > > fear,
> > > > > > > shame,
> > > > > > > > > guilt...and we can
> let them
> > > > > > > > > > go. they
> belong to
> > > another epoch,
> > > > > a distant
> > > > > > > > > antediluvian time
> that will
> > > fade
> > > > > > > > > > rapidly from
> the memory
> > > as the new
> > > > > > > generations live
> > > > > > > > > fully and
> completely
> > > > > > > > > > with the earth
> and with
> > > each
> > > > > other.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > we are all
> different; we
> > > are all
> > > > > equal; we
> > > > > > > are all
> > > > > > > > > one: gaia.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > rock on
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > > Make the
> switch to
> > > the
> > > > > world's best
> > > > > > > email.
> > > > > > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss
> mailing list
> > > > > > > > > > Listinfo,
> Unsubscribing
> > > etc.
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing
> list
> > > > > > > > > Listinfo,
> Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
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> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Make the switch to
> the
> > > world's best
> > > > > email.
> > > > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > > >
> http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing
> etc.
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > >
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > > >
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Make the switch to the
> world's best
> > > email.
> > > > > Get Yahoo!7 Mail!
> > > > > > http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > > > > >
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> > > > > > Archives:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > > >
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > > > >
> > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > > > Archives:
> > > > >
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > > >
> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Make the switch to the world&#39;s
> best
> > > email. Get Yahoo!7
> > > > Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> > >
> >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> > >
> > > .
> > > .
> > >
> > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll
> land
> > > among the stars.........
> > > .
> > > .
> > >
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > >
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> >
> >
> > Make the switch to the world&#39;s best
> email. Get Yahoo!7
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> >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
> .
> .
>
> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land
> among the stars.........
> .
> .
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[gav]

okay....sorry....was a bit loose there darl: just reinforcing the point of the article really: using your brain, i mean really giving total attention to something, makes u hungry. der gav.


--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:

> From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> Subject: Re: [MD] Science: Medicine?
> To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 11:04 PM
> At 08:36 AM 9/27/2008, you wrote:
> >that reminds me of something: the other day i had an
> archimedes in
> >the bath and in towel, dripping, tried to excavate a
> vein of
> >narrative, with much concentration. the process took
> about 30
> >minutes max, and i was sedentary of course, but that
> evening i was
> >ravenous: ate like a horsey man. must have really fired
> up the
> >brain...for a change.
>
> Gav,
>
> I haven't understood one word of the above.
>
> Marsha
>
>
>
>
>
> >--- On Sat, 27/9/08, MarshaV
> <marshalz at charter.net> wrote:
> >
> > > From: MarshaV <marshalz at charter.net>
> > > Subject: [MD] Science: Medicine?
> > > To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
> > > Received: Saturday, 27 September, 2008, 10:29 PM
> > > Now this made me laugh...
> > >
> > >
> http://www.livescience.com/health/080904-brain-food.html
> > >
> > > Such is the state of science.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > .
> > > .
> > >
> > > Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll
> land
> > > among the stars.........
> > > .
> > > .
> > >
> > > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > > Archives:
> > >
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
> >
> >
> > Make the switch to the world&#39;s best
> email. Get Yahoo!7
> > Mail! http://au.yahoo.com/y7mail
> >Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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> >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
>
> .
> .
>
> Shoot for the moon. Even if you miss, you'll land
> among the stars.........
> .
> .
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[Khaled Alkotob]

[Chris]
> I keep saying over and over aging. And ideology cantered around the
> freedom
> to earn money is undeniably in service of the social level. It isn't
> more
> difficult than that. And Freedom. It's just a word.
>

Chris
Last night, Bill Moyers had a Professor on named Andrew Bacevich, the
book they were talking about is 'The Limits of Power: The End of American
Exceptionalism "

he also has a few other books out. check them at amazon

he echoes exactly what you are saying.
Most interesting is that 90% view our way of life, including excess,
overspending, overconsuming, as a given right and equate it with freedom.

PBS online might have the transcript.

khaled
____________________________________________________________
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[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Khaled, everyone

Excellent interview I thought. The main thing that I don't understand why
Platt and the other far-right people on this forum can see is the basically
the first thing that they say in this interview.

The unchecked capitalist society of which the US stands as the utmost and
most far driven example of is a society that, regardless of actual
institutionalisation by any government or fixed social structure, is a
society where the social level remains predominant. There can be no question
in anyone's mind that the consumer-culture that drives both individuals and
entire nations to take the most rash actions in order to sustain it, is a
system that is totally, and fundamentally a product of what the MOQ
identifies as social level.

We may debate the fundamental nature of the intellectual level, but we can
all agree that rationality is a dominant manifestation of it, and if you
look at how devoid of rationality this ongoing quest for wealth is, you can
see it for what it truly is. We build a society based on consuming and
buying - the quest for things that have no value on any other level than the
social level is allowed to direct and enslave the efforts of mankind, and in
the process it might even end up causing the destruction of the very
foundation of our existence as we know it.

This isn't news. But we are philosophers, and at we have adopted a Quality
point of view, and we should all be able to identify the social levels
attempts to blind rationality with empty social symbols. "Freedom" - "The
Pursuit of Happiness" - and above all "Patriotism" (a genuinely retarded
word in my book) words that are used in exactly the same way that "Sieg
Heil" were; no matter the original or alternative meaning of the words,
they are weapons of the social level.

Come on now! We should refuse words such as "patriotism" and other
manifestations of rationality devoud social phenomena's, and we should try
to work to create social patterns that are aimed at the cultivation of
intellectual values - in balance with the other levels of course - and
therefore it is important that we first and foremost realise our enslavement
of these social values that is the capitalist system.

I'm trying to tell anyone what is the best way to do thins, I believe my
view has been made clear many times over anyway, but I am saying that a part
of me seems to die a little bit every time I see people on this forum
seemingly mindlessly praising social level values, even more so here,
because I see it every day, as do you, in the world we are part of. But
here?

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/09262008/watch.html

//Chris

> [Chris]
>> I keep saying over and over aging. And ideology cantered around the
>> freedom
>> to earn money is undeniably in service of the social level. It isn't
>> more
>> difficult than that. And Freedom. It's just a word.

[Khaled]
> Chris
> Last night, Bill Moyers had a Professor on named Andrew Bacevich, the
> book they were talking about is 'The Limits of Power: The End of American
> Exceptionalism "
>
> he also has a few other books out. check them at amazon
>
> he echoes exactly what you are saying.
> Most interesting is that 90% view our way of life, including excess,
> overspending, overconsuming, as a given right and equate it with freedom.
>
> PBS online might have the transcript.

[Platt Holden]

Chris:

> The unchecked capitalist society of which the US stands as the utmost and
> most far driven example of is a society that, regardless of actual
> institutionalisation by any government or fixed social structure, is a
> society where the social level remains predominant. There can be no
> question
> in anyone's mind that the consumer-culture that drives both individuals
> and
> entire nations to take the most rash actions in order to sustain it, is a
> system that is totally, and fundamentally a product of what the MOQ
> identifies as social level.

"What had happened since the end of World War I was that the intellectual
level had entered the picture and had taken over everything. It was this
intellectual level that was screwing everything up." (Lila, 24)

"A free market is a Dynamic institution. What people buy and what people
sell, in other words what people value, can never be contained by any
intellectual formula."(Lila, 17)

Platt

[david buchanan]

Chris said:
...There can be no question in anyone's mind that the consumer-culture that drives both individuals and entire nations to take the most rash actions in order to sustain it, is a system that is totally, and fundamentally a product of what the MOQ identifies as social level.

Platt replied with a quote:
"A free market is a Dynamic institution. What people buy and what people sell, in other words what people value, can never be contained by any intellectual formula."

dmb says:
The trick is to see that both things are true. Money is the measure of social value AND the free market is a dynamic institution. Not only that, but it's also true that the MOQ says an intellectually guided society is more moral than one guided by social value. Platt reads "selectively" and that's the part he always leaves out. And that's exactly the problem with today's free market advocates; they think the market is the answer to everything and that means social values rule.

In any case, it's wrong to imply that the MOQ supports these anti-intellectual attitudes. I really don't see how an honest reader could come anywhere near that conclusion.




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[Platt Holden]

> Chris said:
> ...There can be no question in anyone's mind that the consumer-culture
> that drives both individuals and entire nations to take the most rash
> actions in order to sustain it, is a system that is totally, and
> fundamentally a product of what the MOQ identifies as social level.
>
> Platt replied with a quote:
> "A free market is a Dynamic institution. What people buy and what people
> sell, in other words what people value, can never be contained by any
> intellectual formula."
>
> dmb says:
> The trick is to see that both things are true. Money is the measure of
> social value AND the free market is a dynamic institution. Not only that,
> but it's also true that the MOQ says an intellectually guided society is
> more moral than one guided by social value. Platt reads "selectively" and
> that's the part he always leaves out. And that's exactly the problem with
> today's free market advocates; they think the market is the answer to
> everything and that means social values rule.
>
> In any case, it's wrong to imply that the MOQ supports these
> anti-intellectual attitudes. I really don't see how an honest reader could
> come anywhere near that conclusion.

"It is not that Victorian social economic patterns are more moral than
socialist intellectual economic patterns. Quite the opposite. They are less
moral as static patterns go. What makes the free-enterprise system superior
is that the socialists, reasoning intelligently and objectively, have
inadvertently closed the door to Dynamic Quality in the buying and selling
of things. They closed it because the metaphysical structure of their
objectivity never told them Dynamic Quality exists." (Lila, 17)

"Phaedrus thought that a Metaphysics of Quality could be a replacement for
the paralyzing intellectual system that is allowing all this destruction to
go unchecked. The paralysis of America is a paralysis of moral patterns.
Morals can't function normally because morals have been declared
intellectually illegal by the subject-object metaphysics that dominates
present social thought. These subject-object patterns were never designed
for the job of governing society. They're not doing it. When they're put in
the position of controlling society, of setting moral standards and
declaring values, and when they then declare that there are no values and
no morals, the result isn't progress. The result is social catastrophe."
(Lila, 24)

[Magnus Berg]

Hi Platt

Platt Holden wrote:
>> Chris said:
>> ...There can be no question in anyone's mind that the consumer-culture
>> that drives both individuals and entire nations to take the most rash
>> actions in order to sustain it, is a system that is totally, and
>> fundamentally a product of what the MOQ identifies as social level.
>>
>> Platt replied with a quote:
>> "A free market is a Dynamic institution. What people buy and what people
>> sell, in other words what people value, can never be contained by any
>> intellectual formula."
>>
>> dmb says:
>> The trick is to see that both things are true. Money is the measure of
>> social value AND the free market is a dynamic institution. Not only that,
>> but it's also true that the MOQ says an intellectually guided society is
>> more moral than one guided by social value. Platt reads "selectively" and
>> that's the part he always leaves out. And that's exactly the problem with
>> today's free market advocates; they think the market is the answer to
>> everything and that means social values rule.
>>
>> In any case, it's wrong to imply that the MOQ supports these
>> anti-intellectual attitudes. I really don't see how an honest reader could
>> come anywhere near that conclusion.
>
> "It is not that Victorian social economic patterns are more moral than
> socialist intellectual economic patterns. Quite the opposite. They are less
> moral as static patterns go. What makes the free-enterprise system superior
> is that the socialists, reasoning intelligently and objectively, have
> inadvertently closed the door to Dynamic Quality in the buying and selling
> of things. They closed it because the metaphysical structure of their
> objectivity never told them Dynamic Quality exists." (Lila, 17)
>
> "Phaedrus thought that a Metaphysics of Quality could be a replacement for
> the paralyzing intellectual system that is allowing all this destruction to
> go unchecked. The paralysis of America is a paralysis of moral patterns.
> Morals can't function normally because morals have been declared
> intellectually illegal by the subject-object metaphysics that dominates
> present social thought. These subject-object patterns were never designed
> for the job of governing society. They're not doing it. When they're put in
> the position of controlling society, of setting moral standards and
> declaring values, and when they then declare that there are no values and
> no morals, the result isn't progress. The result is social catastrophe."
> (Lila, 24)

Then perhaps Platt could explain to us how the free market should make it
through the current "credit crunch" without the intellectual interventions being
set up by the same right-wing government that usually hate such measures.

To me, it seems the "free market" has been more short-sighted than usual. I
mean, I can understand that they don't care about our environment because that
won't strike back very soon, they might even elude it during their life time.
But to start eating off the very branch they're sitting on is pretty stupid even
for their standards. And now, as that free market is clinging to the half-eaten
branch for its life it screams to the ground, "Hey, if you don't save us, we'll
come crashing down on you, and that would hurt!"

Do you really think it's moral for the free market to cause so much pain to both
itself and the society it's a part of?

Another thing. Have you ever considered the possibility that the intellectual
"brain" of the society is *also* dynamic? Newsflash Platt, it IS!

This means that it's moral for the government to rule the free market, to
occasionally change the rules. And the thing is, the free market is ok with
that. It might change course a bit to make as much profit it can using the new
rules, but from the market's point of view, the new rules are simply DQ, as in:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

When a higher level intervenes with a lower, the lower level doesn't have a clue
what happened. It just adapts and goes on.

As we discussed a few months ago, and as both DMB and Chris said, you're abusing
quotes from Lila to suit your own agenda. Please start thinking for your own
instead.

Magnus

[Platt Holden]

Hi Magnus,

> Platt Holden wrote:
> >> Chris said:
> >> ...There can be no question in anyone's mind that the
> consumer-culture
> >> that drives both individuals and entire nations to take the most rash
> >> actions in order to sustain it, is a system that is totally, and
> >> fundamentally a product of what the MOQ identifies as social level.
> >>
> >> Platt replied with a quote:
> >> "A free market is a Dynamic institution. What people buy and what
> people
> >> sell, in other words what people value, can never be contained by any
> >> intellectual formula."
> >>
> >> dmb says:
> >> The trick is to see that both things are true. Money is the measure
> of
> >> social value AND the free market is a dynamic institution. Not only
> that,
> >> but it's also true that the MOQ says an intellectually guided society
> is
> >> more moral than one guided by social value. Platt reads "selectively"
> and
> >> that's the part he always leaves out. And that's exactly the problem
> with
> >> today's free market advocates; they think the market is the answer to
> >> everything and that means social values rule.
> >>
> >> In any case, it's wrong to imply that the MOQ supports these
> >> anti-intellectual attitudes. I really don't see how an honest reader
> could
> >> come anywhere near that conclusion.
> >
> > "It is not that Victorian social economic patterns are more moral than
> > socialist intellectual economic patterns. Quite the opposite. They are
> less
> > moral as static patterns go. What makes the free-enterprise system
> superior
> > is that the socialists, reasoning intelligently and objectively, have
> > inadvertently closed the door to Dynamic Quality in the buying and
> selling
> > of things. They closed it because the metaphysical structure of their
> > objectivity never told them Dynamic Quality exists." (Lila, 17)
> >
> > "Phaedrus thought that a Metaphysics of Quality could be a replacement
> for
> > the paralyzing intellectual system that is allowing all this destruction
> to
> > go unchecked. The paralysis of America is a paralysis of moral patterns.
> > Morals can't function normally because morals have been declared
> > intellectually illegal by the subject-object metaphysics that dominates
> > present social thought. These subject-object patterns were never
> designed
> > for the job of governing society. They're not doing it. When they're put
> in
> > the position of controlling society, of setting moral standards and
> > declaring values, and when they then declare that there are no values
> and
> > no morals, the result isn't progress. The result is social catastrophe."
> > (Lila, 24)
>
> Then perhaps Platt could explain to us how the free market should make it
> through the current "credit crunch" without the intellectual interventions
> being
> set up by the same right-wing government that usually hate such
> measures.
>
> To me, it seems the "free market" has been more short-sighted than usual.
> I
> mean, I can understand that they don't care about our environment because
> that
> won't strike back very soon, they might even elude it during their life
> time.
> But to start eating off the very branch they're sitting on is pretty
> stupid even
> for their standards. And now, as that free market is clinging to the
> half-eaten
> branch for its life it screams to the ground, "Hey, if you don't save us,
> we'll
> come crashing down on you, and that would hurt!"
>
> Do you really think it's moral for the free market to cause so much pain
> to both
> itself and the society it's a part of?
>
> Another thing. Have you ever considered the possibility that the
> intellectual
> "brain" of the society is *also* dynamic? Newsflash Platt, it IS!
>
> This means that it's moral for the government to rule the free market, to
> occasionally change the rules. And the thing is, the free market is ok
> with
> that. It might change course a bit to make as much profit it can using the
> new
> rules, but from the market's point of view, the new rules are simply DQ,
> as in:
>
> "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."
>
> When a higher level intervenes with a lower, the lower level doesn't have
> a clue
> what happened. It just adapts and goes on.
>
> As we discussed a few months ago, and as both DMB and Chris said, you're
> abusing
> quotes from Lila to suit your own agenda. Please start thinking for your
> own
> instead.

"The New Deal was many things, but at the center of it all was the belief
that intellectual planning by the government was necessary for society to
regain its health." (Lila, 22)

"Fannie Mae was founded as a government agency in 1938 as part of Franklin
Delano Roosevelt's New Deal to provide liquidity to the mortgage market."
(Wikipedia)

Need I say more?

Platt

[Magnus Berg]

Hi Platt

> "The New Deal was many things, but at the center of it all was the belief
> that intellectual planning by the government was necessary for society to
> regain its health." (Lila, 22)
>
> "Fannie Mae was founded as a government agency in 1938 as part of Franklin
> Delano Roosevelt's New Deal to provide liquidity to the mortgage market."
> (Wikipedia)
>
> Need I say more?

So now you've found a quote that says that intellectual patterns are *not* more
moral than social patterns. I recently noticed that you had been absent for a
couple of weeks, but I see now what you've been up to. Digging up quotes from
Lila to support your screwed up political agenda.

Can we now have a real *discussion* about it? Or will you keep hiding behind
slogans from Lila?

Magnus

[Platt Holden]

Hi Magnus,

> > "The New Deal was many things, but at the center of it all was the
> belief
> > that intellectual planning by the government was necessary for society
> to
> > regain its health." (Lila, 22)
> >
> > "Fannie Mae was founded as a government agency in 1938 as part of
> Franklin
> > Delano Roosevelt's New Deal to provide liquidity to the mortgage
> market."
> > (Wikipedia)
> >
> > Need I say more?
>
> So now you've found a quote that says that intellectual patterns are *not*
> more
> moral than social patterns. I recently noticed that you had been absent
> for a
> couple of weeks, but I see now what you've been up to. Digging up quotes
> from
> Lila to support your screwed up political agenda.
>
> Can we now have a real *discussion* about it? Or will you keep hiding
> behind
> slogans from Lila?

"What seemed to allow this deadly night to descend was that the
intellectual patterns that were supposed to be in charge of things, that
should comprehend the threat and lead the fight against it, were paralyzed.
They were paralyzed, not by any external force, but by their own internal
construction, which made them unable to comprehend what was happening."
(Lila, 24)

Another "slogan" for you to ponder.

Platt

[Magnus Berg]

>> Can we now have a real *discussion* about it? Or will you keep hiding
>> behind
>> slogans from Lila?
>
> "What seemed to allow this deadly night to descend was that the
> intellectual patterns that were supposed to be in charge of things, that
> should comprehend the threat and lead the fight against it, were paralyzed.
> They were paralyzed, not by any external force, but by their own internal
> construction, which made them unable to comprehend what was happening."
> (Lila, 24)
>
> Another "slogan" for you to ponder.

I take that as a No followed by a Yes to my questions above. Let me know if you
change your mind.

Magnus

[Khaled Alkotob]

[Chris]
> Excellent interview I thought. The main thing that I don't
> understand why
> Platt and the other far-right people on this forum can see is the
> basically
> the first thing that they say in this interview.
>
> The unchecked capitalist society of which the US stands as the
> utmost and
> most far driven example of is a society that, regardless of actual
> institutionalisation by any government or fixed social structure, is
> a society where the social level remains predominant. There can be no
> question in anyone's mind that the consumer-culture that drives both
> individuals and entire nations to take the most rash actions in order
to sustain it,
> is a system that is totally, and fundamentally a product of what the
MOQ
> identifies as social level.


Chris and all

A few weeks back a friend emailed 2 photos, one showing sarah palin in
front of a big decked out motorcycle and another showing Obama with a
helmet on pedaling his commuter bicycle.

Sure one photo is a lot more appealing than the other. But if you stop
and think about it, one photo is a lot more environmentally friendly than
the other.

then I ask the following question, when you hear politician say the
following sentence " addiction to Foreign oil", which word in that
sentence do you consider a problem.

to most people the word foreign is the issue and not the word addiction.

After all they see it as our oil under their sand.

the unfortunate part, free market capitalism is by far the better of all
alternatives, as apposed to socialism or communism.

that being said, when a failure happens in a free market, socialist
responses, such as government bail out, should not happen.

the reason we keep seeing such economic disasters, is that while we claim
to champion free market, the reality is that it's free market for the
little guy while it is socialist market for the big guy. Foe example when
a pharmaceutical company lobbies for the government to intervene on its
behalf to stop cheaper drugs to come in from Canada, that is one way
socialized medicine.
it helps the big corporation while preventing the little guy from
obtaining heath care at an affordable price. So much for free market. Oh
yeah they will tell you that they are doing that to ensure the quality of
your medications.

Stewardship is a word that I have mentioned before. Stewardship on the
part of the big guy, but of course we keep hearing that they have
obligation toward their share holders, which is your 401K.

So they got us running this crazy treadmill. Few manage to see it. I have
friends bragging when they show me their new automobiles and what it has
cost them. My answer is the following: Every $10K i can put away each
year, translates into retirement a year earlier. So the difference
between that BMW and Honda is about 3 years. I would like to retire and
travel without the use of a walker or a wheel chair, what are your plans?

Boy, the look on their face, it's priceless.

Khaled
____________________________________________________________
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[Christoffer Ivarsson]

Hi Khaled

> the unfortunate part, free market capitalism is by far the better of all
> alternatives, as apposed to socialism or communism.
>
> that being said, when a failure happens in a free market, socialist
> responses, such as government bail out, should not happen.

> Foe example when
> a pharmaceutical company lobbies for the government to intervene on its
> behalf to stop cheaper drugs to come in from Canada, that is one way
> socialized medicine.
> it helps the big corporation while preventing the little guy from
> obtaining heath care at an affordable price. So much for free market. Oh
> yeah they will tell you that they are doing that to ensure the quality of
> your medications.

OR you could do it the way we do it over here. Which is real socialism. We
the people collectively own the only pharmaceutical retailing company there
is (a state monopoly) and that monopoly ensures that the medicines that are
sold are properly tested, of course, and that the prices are kept on a good
level since it's status as a state ownd company doesn't require it to sell
for profit, just to go round.

I could mention the school system and the healthcare system in general as
well, but I think you get the picture.

The main thing about it is that I - being a socialist - say that key things
in society, Schooling, Healthcare and such, can NEVER be allowed to be
subject to the whims of the free market and the hunger for profit that
throughout history has continuously placed the human rights and values in
second hand.


We know, as surely as we can know anything, that the free marked is not
concerned with human beings. Just money. Thus it cannot be entrusted with
the lives of human beings, and since it is only concerned with people as as
means in a line of production or as consumers, it cannot be entrusted with
the development of human knowledge, which necessarily needs to be as free
from profit-influences as possible.

//Chris

[Khaled Alkotob]

Hello All

Just heard this on the news so i went to verify it and here is the story:

---------------------------------------
Alan Fishman, the CEO of Washington Mutual Inc. for only a few weeks
before the Seattle-based thrift failed, would be entitled to $19.1
million in severance and bonus pay.
Two other top WaMu executives have clauses in their employment agreements
that would also pay them a total of $19 million in cash severance if they
are terminated by JPMorgan Chase & Co.
WaMu, which has 67 branches in Oregon, was seized by federal regulators
and sold to JPMorgan Chase & Co. Sept. 25.
According to a WaMu filing with the Securities and Exchange Commission,
Fishman, who replaced Kerry Killinger as WaMu CEO on Sept. 8, signed an
agreement that would pay him a cash severance of $11.6 million if he is
terminated this year or resigns. He also would be allowed to keep his
$7.5 million signing bonus.
---------------------------------------
So Mr. fishman would get $19.1 million for 18 days of work, 14 days if
you exclude the weekend.
lets say he did manage to put in 10 hours a day, that's 140 hours so if
you so the math that's $136,428 per hour.
Whatever happened that the captain of the ship is the last one to set off
when the ship is sinking. Instead all we are seeing is the captains to be
the first of the sinking ship.
Whatever happened to the Victorian values of women and children first.
When and where does free-market ends, and common sense begin. Yes these
CEOs are legally entitled to their contracts, but am I wrong in thinking
that under the circumstance doing what is RIGHT is more important.

Khaled
____________________________________________________________
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[craigerb]

Platt,
An interesting allegory. Even more instructive were the attacks on it.
Craig

[craigerb]

[Krimel]
> may preserve your warm fuzzy feeling but so does pissing yourself while
> wearing a dark suit.

Especially flannel.

[Krimel]
> The Raygun Revolution took us several steps backward culturally
> and morally.

There goes your invitation to join Citizens for Reagan.

[Krimel]
> Craig...and others on this forum continue to support
> the "ideology" that produced the current state of affairs.

But consider the possibility that "the current state of affairs"
was not "produced by an ideology."
Craig

[Lord Arioch]

Thou reap what thou sow
citizens of thy t0wer 0f Babel
?
?



----- Original Message ----
From: ARLO J BENSINGER JR <ajb102 at psu.edu>
To: moq_discuss at moqtalk.org
Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 8:42:31 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] A modern allegory

[Khaled]
The republican way of doing it, is for someone to deliver a 'contribution' to
the dean's office, to elevate that poor girls grade.

[Arlo]
Yeah, you're right. And I suppose that father would have to explain to his
daughter that it is okay for part of her GPA to be taken away and given to
Mark, who's serving in the military. He'd have to fess up that it's not "taking
away her GPA and giving it to others" that's at issue, its giving it to slutty,
partying, lazy, stupid "classmates".

I also wonder what that daughter's reaction would be towards being given the
option to have her GPA lowered from 3.0 to 2.98 if doing so would cure her
classmates of cancer. Since the dialogue is in Platt's hands, of course, I'm
sure she would say something Dickensesque ("let them die and decrease the
surplus population").

I also imagine that she'd come to realize that all the problems in the world
are the result of evil collectivists and radical leftists, everything from teen
pregnancy to the financial crisis... all the fault of libs.. Oh, and since Ham
chimed in with (surprise, surprise) praise for Platt's low-brow "parable", I
suppose he'd work in those damnable "nihilists" as well.


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