[MD] The need for quality

[Andrew Chu]

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.

Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[Andrew Chu]

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.

Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[WES STEWART]

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.

Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[Andrew Chu]

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.

Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew,

Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.

Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.

A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.

Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.

Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[Andrew Chu]

Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?

To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.

Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.

A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.

Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.

Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew,

We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.

However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical, easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested , pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves, they manipulate and are easily manipulated.

It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was immoral and a human disaster.









----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?

To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.

Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.

A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.

Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.

Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[Andrew Chu]

So the separation of our selves into biological and intellectual I think is another sign that there is a missing link somewhere.

The beauty of the MOQ is its unifying simplicity. It gives a framework by which we can better understand the world across all mediums be they scientific, spiritual or artistic. But it doesn’t give us an equally simplified framework as to how to apply it in our daily lives.

We can understand MOQ deeply and yet still struggle to apply it in our daily lives, wrestling with the biological, the intellectual and other states of mind that each of us have to varying degrees.

The fact that even Pirsig/Phaedrus’ character succumbs to his biological state more often than not is some proof to this element of human nature.

In a nutshell, I think blaming the biological part of ourselves is a bit of a cop-out. As MOQ states, everything comes back to and is sourced from quality. To then apply this to ourselves but then give exceptions for this or that state of mind when we step out of high quality states dissipates the MOQ’s powerful framework.

What is needed is not only a framework for understanding relationships of all things, but also a framework for the specific application of that to human beings. Personally, I think what makes humans unique from all other subjects beyond our awareness of our own various states, is our ability to direct and control our actions. Our ability to manifest intent into physical reality and thus influence quality. We want to create a race car, we can channel our intent towards that. We want to create an atomic bomb, we can do that, too. We want to land on the moon? Etc etc.

I think breaking down the driving force behind these actions into states is similar to seeing the reality as a classical/romantic duality. It misses the forest through the trees. Instead we should focus on the driving force itself particularly as it relates to human beings. And that, to me, is intent.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 9:21 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.

However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical, easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested , pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves, they manipulate and are easily manipulated.

It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was immoral and a human disaster.









----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?

To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.

Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.

A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.

Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.
Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew,

We do not blame our biological patterns but we see them for what they are, we contemplate then reflect if they are harmful to ourselves or others, then we attempt some change. Do something that breaks up your static patterns by using your intellect, by contemplating and reflecting to come up with some good ideas. If you unknowingly ate some bad meat, you would almost certainly throw up, this is quality in your biological system, it has value. It would be immoral for humanity that just because we ate bad meat we should die. There was some sort of evolution in our past, a dynamic quality that allow us to eat bad meat, not process it but get rid of it quickly.
If your biological static patterns rule rather than your intellect intervening at times, society has constructed prisons for that.
If society has hidden rules that abuse a group of individuals our intellect should act on this because it has knowledge of fairness and equality.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:07:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

So the separation of our selves into biological and intellectual I think is another sign that there is a missing link somewhere.

The beauty of the MOQ is its unifying simplicity. It gives a framework by which we can better understand the world across all mediums be they scientific, spiritual or artistic. But it doesn’t give us an equally simplified framework as to how to apply it in our daily lives.

We can understand MOQ deeply and yet still struggle to apply it in our daily lives, wrestling with the biological, the intellectual and other states of mind that each of us have to varying degrees.

The fact that even Pirsig/Phaedrus’ character succumbs to his biological state more often than not is some proof to this element of human nature.

In a nutshell, I think blaming the biological part of ourselves is a bit of a cop-out. As MOQ states, everything comes back to and is sourced from quality. To then apply this to ourselves but then give exceptions for this or that state of mind when we step out of high quality states dissipates the MOQ’s powerful framework.

What is needed is not only a framework for understanding relationships of all things, but also a framework for the specific application of that to human beings. Personally, I think what makes humans unique from all other subjects beyond our awareness of our own various states, is our ability to direct and control our actions. Our ability to manifest intent into physical reality and thus influence quality. We want to create a race car, we can channel our intent towards that. We want to create an atomic bomb, we can do that, too. We want to land on the moon? Etc etc.

I think breaking down the driving force behind these actions into states is similar to seeing the reality as a classical/romantic duality. It misses the forest through the trees. Instead we should focus on the driving force itself particularly as it relates to human beings. And that, to me, is intent.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 9:21 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.

However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical, easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested , pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves, they manipulate and are easily manipulated.

It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was immoral and a human disaster.









----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?

To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.

Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.

A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.

Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.
Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[Andrew Chu]

How do we nurture more intellects?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 3:21 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

We do not blame our biological patterns but we see them for what they are, we contemplate then reflect if they are harmful to ourselves or others, then we attempt some change. Do something that breaks up your static patterns by using your intellect, by contemplating and reflecting to come up with some good ideas. If you unknowingly ate some bad meat, you would almost certainly throw up, this is quality in your biological system, it has value. It would be immoral for humanity that just because we ate bad meat we should die. There was some sort of evolution in our past, a dynamic quality that allow us to eat bad meat, not process it but get rid of it quickly.
If your biological static patterns rule rather than your intellect intervening at times, society has constructed prisons for that.
If society has hidden rules that abuse a group of individuals our intellect should act on this because it has knowledge of fairness and equality.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:07:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

So the separation of our selves into biological and intellectual I think is another sign that there is a missing link somewhere.

The beauty of the MOQ is its unifying simplicity. It gives a framework by which we can better understand the world across all mediums be they scientific, spiritual or artistic. But it doesn’t give us an equally simplified framework as to how to apply it in our daily lives.

We can understand MOQ deeply and yet still struggle to apply it in our daily lives, wrestling with the biological, the intellectual and other states of mind that each of us have to varying degrees.

The fact that even Pirsig/Phaedrus’ character succumbs to his biological state more often than not is some proof to this element of human nature.

In a nutshell, I think blaming the biological part of ourselves is a bit of a cop-out. As MOQ states, everything comes back to and is sourced from quality. To then apply this to ourselves but then give exceptions for this or that state of mind when we step out of high quality states dissipates the MOQ’s powerful framework.

What is needed is not only a framework for understanding relationships of all things, but also a framework for the specific application of that to human beings. Personally, I think what makes humans unique from all other subjects beyond our awareness of our own various states, is our ability to direct and control our actions. Our ability to manifest intent into physical reality and thus influence quality. We want to create a race car, we can channel our intent towards that. We want to create an atomic bomb, we can do that, too. We want to land on the moon? Etc etc.

I think breaking down the driving force behind these actions into states is similar to seeing the reality as a classical/romantic duality. It misses the forest through the trees. Instead we should focus on the driving force itself particularly as it relates to human beings. And that, to me, is intent.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 9:21 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.

However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical, easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested , pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves, they manipulate and are easily manipulated.

It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was immoral and a human disaster.









----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?

To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.

Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.

A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.

Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.
Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[WES STEWART]

People, who ask a question why things are the way they are? Struggle with it then spend a lot of time trying to find what is wrong and try to find a solution are not the large population.
Our thinking and upper managers (those in organizations including government) is clouded because we/they assert to authority, muddled by self importance, self interest, greed, jealousies, anxiety, hate and revenge.
The scientific way that Pirsig described. It's also Shewharts and Demings way to build quality into a society, culture or system. First you have to see that something is wrong, and then come up with a hypothesis on why it is wrong. Then you plan how to fix it, carry out the fix, and study it after to see what happens, then you take action either way on whether it worked or not. They called it Plan, Do, Study and Act PDSA.

Our basic educational systems, have not taught critical thinking, normally it is memorize this, he is an approved smart guy , and we have approved him.

We are biological creatures and trained well by those who run the system, we are trained not to think. Nature creates quality and morality into a biological being. If I suffer an injury my blood clots at the source of the injury white blood cells standby to attack any bacteria.
That's quality, and it would be immoral if someone was to bleed out or bacteria invade his body to destroy him. Bacteria are a lower form of life it
would not be moral if a lower form of life could kill a higher form so easily.

Intellectuals have managed to change society. African Americans were given the right to vote, by an intellectual struggle. There is a long list of other victories.

A few years back It became known that the American congress had passed over 1500 policies and the majority of these had benfited only those wealthy congressman. How do you fix that? People who are leading a society that are run not by their intellect, but by biology. (Self interest, self importance and greed.)
They have and will never seek knowledge of equality, fairness, because you need a scientific mind for that, drift off in to that state of absent mindedness, gather your thoughts and observations, then struggle with it; the mind has to be in a pure innocent state, it may not be possible for the majority of politicians. If you can do this you will find something closer to the truth.

Maybe a few of them may question and find an answer. What does it mean about me and my congressional colleagues ? It means we are motivated at a simple biological level
therefore I share something with pond scum.

----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:07:11 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

How do we nurture more intellects?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 3:21 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

We do not blame our biological patterns but we see them for what they are, we contemplate then reflect if they are harmful to ourselves or others, then we attempt some change. Do something that breaks up your static patterns by using your intellect, by contemplating and reflecting to come up with some good ideas. If you unknowingly ate some bad meat, you would almost certainly throw up, this is quality in your biological system, it has value. It would be immoral for humanity that just because we ate bad meat we should die. There was some sort of evolution in our past, a dynamic quality that allow us to eat bad meat, not process it but get rid of it quickly.
If your biological static patterns rule rather than your intellect intervening at times, society has constructed prisons for that.
If society has hidden rules that abuse a group of individuals our intellect should act on this because it has knowledge of fairness and equality.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:07:52 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

So the separation of our selves into biological and intellectual I think is another sign that there is a missing link somewhere.

The beauty of the MOQ is its unifying simplicity. It gives a framework by which we can better understand the world across all mediums be they scientific, spiritual or artistic. But it doesn’t give us an equally simplified framework as to how to apply it in our daily lives.

We can understand MOQ deeply and yet still struggle to apply it in our daily lives, wrestling with the biological, the intellectual and other states of mind that each of us have to varying degrees.

The fact that even Pirsig/Phaedrus’ character succumbs to his biological state more often than not is some proof to this element of human nature.

In a nutshell, I think blaming the biological part of ourselves is a bit of a cop-out. As MOQ states, everything comes back to and is sourced from quality. To then apply this to ourselves but then give exceptions for this or that state of mind when we step out of high quality states dissipates the MOQ’s powerful framework.

What is needed is not only a framework for understanding relationships of all things, but also a framework for the specific application of that to human beings. Personally, I think what makes humans unique from all other subjects beyond our awareness of our own various states, is our ability to direct and control our actions. Our ability to manifest intent into physical reality and thus influence quality. We want to create a race car, we can channel our intent towards that. We want to create an atomic bomb, we can do that, too. We want to land on the moon? Etc etc.

I think breaking down the driving force behind these actions into states is similar to seeing the reality as a classical/romantic duality. It misses the forest through the trees. Instead we should focus on the driving force itself particularly as it relates to human beings. And that, to me, is intent.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 9:21 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.

However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical, easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested , pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves, they manipulate and are easily manipulated.

It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was immoral and a human disaster.









----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?

To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.

Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.

A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.

Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.

Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.

But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?

We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?

The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?

For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks for the reply Andrew;

Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.

None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.

Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.

Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hey Wes, good to meet you.

So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.

However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.

The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.

Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.

The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.

I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.

I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.


From: WES STEWART
Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.

Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.

In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.

Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.
Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.

Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.



----- Original Message -----
From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.

So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.

It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.

The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.

And that’s a problem.

The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.

Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.

Sincerely,
Andrew


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[Dan Glover]

Hi guys,

Great discussion!

Hey. Just an aside. Maybe. But maybe not. I just got back from viewing
the eclipse. First time I ever've seen totality. Had to check what I
was drinking for if someone'd slipped LSD into it or maybe diced up
psilocybin mushrooms on that breakfast burrito I had earlier. Took off
work and drove 400 miles for a totality lasting 2 minutes 40 seconds
and I'd do it again tomorrow were there another. Mindblowing.
Completely mindblowing.

See, intellectually I knew exactly what an eclipse is. I knew what to
expect. But to witness that mofo... that was an experience. People've
asked me oh did it get dark and did you see stars and did the crickets
start into chirping and yes to all but Jesus God there were people
driving past me at the same moment the moon was blocking out the sun
and their headlights were on and but they never even pulled over to
look. And they were right there. Right there.

One of the people I was with said hey it's because we're in Missouri.
And he wasn't joking. More, though, leading up to the eclipse I kept
getting nasty messages on Facebook saying: "am I the only one not
going to the eclipse?" And people are agreeing. Oh yeah. Big waste of
time, that. I'm not going. As if it is somehow okay to be jaded. No.
Expected. How one of the wonders of the world is right there above our
heads and we're too busy or too adultish or too know-it-all to take
the time and watch and those of us who do revel in the experience are
dullishly off-kilter, worthy of putdowns.

I'm not much into politics. The wheel turns. Now is the time for
stupid people to rule. That'll pass as it always does. If you accept
the basic tenet of the MOQ, that quality and morality are identical,
then you might also see how what's better is driving evolution on all
four levels. And what's better doesn't necessarily mean intellect
always rules. I read this article about how birds what live along
roadways are evolving shorter wingspans. That doesn't presuppose as
some would have it an intelligent being overseeing such happenings nor
is it a matter of chance. Rather, birds with long wingspans are unable
to fly away quickly enough and are killed by cars thus unable to
propagate. Short wings are better.

There are so many ah ha moments in life which we gloss over.
Especially should things not fit with our preconceived notion of the
world and our place in it. If the MOQ teaches us anything, it should
be to wake up. To be there. To give our attention to what is right in
front of us instead of forever planning for tomorrow.

Anyway...


On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:26 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> People, who ask a question why things are the way they are? Struggle with it then spend a lot of time trying to find what is wrong and try to find a solution are not the large population.
> Our thinking and upper managers (those in organizations including government) is clouded because we/they assert to authority, muddled by self importance, self interest, greed, jealousies, anxiety, hate and revenge.
> The scientific way that Pirsig described. It's also Shewharts and Demings way to build quality into a society, culture or system. First you have to see that something is wrong, and then come up with a hypothesis on why it is wrong. Then you plan how to fix it, carry out the fix, and study it after to see what happens, then you take action either way on whether it worked or not. They called it Plan, Do, Study and Act PDSA.
>
> Our basic educational systems, have not taught critical thinking, normally it is memorize this, he is an approved smart guy , and we have approved him.
>
> We are biological creatures and trained well by those who run the system, we are trained not to think. Nature creates quality and morality into a biological being. If I suffer an injury my blood clots at the source of the injury white blood cells standby to attack any bacteria.
> That's quality, and it would be immoral if someone was to bleed out or bacteria invade his body to destroy him. Bacteria are a lower form of life it
> would not be moral if a lower form of life could kill a higher form so easily.
>
> Intellectuals have managed to change society. African Americans were given the right to vote, by an intellectual struggle. There is a long list of other victories.
>
> A few years back It became known that the American congress had passed over 1500 policies and the majority of these had benfited only those wealthy congressman. How do you fix that? People who are leading a society that are run not by their intellect, but by biology. (Self interest, self importance and greed.)
> They have and will never seek knowledge of equality, fairness, because you need a scientific mind for that, drift off in to that state of absent mindedness, gather your thoughts and observations, then struggle with it; the mind has to be in a pure innocent state, it may not be possible for the majority of politicians. If you can do this you will find something closer to the truth.
>
> Maybe a few of them may question and find an answer. What does it mean about me and my congressional colleagues ? It means we are motivated at a simple biological level
> therefore I share something with pond scum.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:07:11 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> How do we nurture more intellects?
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> We do not blame our biological patterns but we see them for what they are, we contemplate then reflect if they are harmful to ourselves or others, then we attempt some change. Do something that breaks up your static patterns by using your intellect, by contemplating and reflecting to come up with some good ideas. If you unknowingly ate some bad meat, you would almost certainly throw up, this is quality in your biological system, it has value. It would be immoral for humanity that just because we ate bad meat we should die. There was some sort of evolution in our past, a dynamic quality that allow us to eat bad meat, not process it but get rid of it quickly.
> If your biological static patterns rule rather than your intellect intervening at times, society has constructed prisons for that.
> If society has hidden rules that abuse a group of individuals our intellect should act on this because it has knowledge of fairness and equality.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:07:52 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> So the separation of our selves into biological and intellectual I think is another sign that there is a missing link somewhere.
>
> The beauty of the MOQ is its unifying simplicity. It gives a framework by which we can better understand the world across all mediums be they scientific, spiritual or artistic. But it doesn’t give us an equally simplified framework as to how to apply it in our daily lives.
>
> We can understand MOQ deeply and yet still struggle to apply it in our daily lives, wrestling with the biological, the intellectual and other states of mind that each of us have to varying degrees.
>
> The fact that even Pirsig/Phaedrus’ character succumbs to his biological state more often than not is some proof to this element of human nature.
>
> In a nutshell, I think blaming the biological part of ourselves is a bit of a cop-out. As MOQ states, everything comes back to and is sourced from quality. To then apply this to ourselves but then give exceptions for this or that state of mind when we step out of high quality states dissipates the MOQ’s powerful framework.
>
> What is needed is not only a framework for understanding relationships of all things, but also a framework for the specific application of that to human beings. Personally, I think what makes humans unique from all other subjects beyond our awareness of our own various states, is our ability to direct and control our actions. Our ability to manifest intent into physical reality and thus influence quality. We want to create a race car, we can channel our intent towards that. We want to create an atomic bomb, we can do that, too. We want to land on the moon? Etc etc.
>
> I think breaking down the driving force behind these actions into states is similar to seeing the reality as a classical/romantic duality. It misses the forest through the trees. Instead we should focus on the driving force itself particularly as it relates to human beings. And that, to me, is intent.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 9:21 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.
>
> However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical, easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested , pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves, they manipulate and are easily manipulated.
>
> It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was immoral and a human disaster.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?
>
> To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.
>
> Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.
>
> A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.
>
> Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
> weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.
>
> Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.
>
> But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?
>
> We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?
>
> The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?
>
> For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Thanks for the reply Andrew;
>
> Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.
>
> None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.
>
> Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.
>
> Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hey Wes, good to meet you.
>
> So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.
>
> However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.
>
> The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.
>
> Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.
>
> The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.
>
> I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.
>
> I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.
>
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.
>
> Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.
>
> In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
> would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.
>
> Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.
> Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.
>
> Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello all,
>
> My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.
>
> So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.
>
> It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.
>
> The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.
>
> And that’s a problem.
>
> The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.
>
> Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.
>
> Sincerely,
> Andrew
>
>
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htt

[Adrie Kintziger]

Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
the
shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
emerge?......,

Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
everything is anew every day.

Adrie




2017-08-22 9:00 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:

> Hi guys,
>
> Great discussion!
>
> Hey. Just an aside. Maybe. But maybe not. I just got back from viewing
> the eclipse. First time I ever've seen totality. Had to check what I
> was drinking for if someone'd slipped LSD into it or maybe diced up
> psilocybin mushrooms on that breakfast burrito I had earlier. Took off
> work and drove 400 miles for a totality lasting 2 minutes 40 seconds
> and I'd do it again tomorrow were there another. Mindblowing.
> Completely mindblowing.
>
> See, intellectually I knew exactly what an eclipse is. I knew what to
> expect. But to witness that mofo... that was an experience. People've
> asked me oh did it get dark and did you see stars and did the crickets
> start into chirping and yes to all but Jesus God there were people
> driving past me at the same moment the moon was blocking out the sun
> and their headlights were on and but they never even pulled over to
> look. And they were right there. Right there.
>
> One of the people I was with said hey it's because we're in Missouri.
> And he wasn't joking. More, though, leading up to the eclipse I kept
> getting nasty messages on Facebook saying: "am I the only one not
> going to the eclipse?" And people are agreeing. Oh yeah. Big waste of
> time, that. I'm not going. As if it is somehow okay to be jaded. No.
> Expected. How one of the wonders of the world is right there above our
> heads and we're too busy or too adultish or too know-it-all to take
> the time and watch and those of us who do revel in the experience are
> dullishly off-kilter, worthy of putdowns.
>
> I'm not much into politics. The wheel turns. Now is the time for
> stupid people to rule. That'll pass as it always does. If you accept
> the basic tenet of the MOQ, that quality and morality are identical,
> then you might also see how what's better is driving evolution on all
> four levels. And what's better doesn't necessarily mean intellect
> always rules. I read this article about how birds what live along
> roadways are evolving shorter wingspans. That doesn't presuppose as
> some would have it an intelligent being overseeing such happenings nor
> is it a matter of chance. Rather, birds with long wingspans are unable
> to fly away quickly enough and are killed by cars thus unable to
> propagate. Short wings are better.
>
> There are so many ah ha moments in life which we gloss over.
> Especially should things not fit with our preconceived notion of the
> world and our place in it. If the MOQ teaches us anything, it should
> be to wake up. To be there. To give our attention to what is right in
> front of us instead of forever planning for tomorrow.
>
> Anyway...
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:26 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > People, who ask a question why things are the way they are? Struggle
> with it then spend a lot of time trying to find what is wrong and try to
> find a solution are not the large population.
> > Our thinking and upper managers (those in organizations including
> government) is clouded because we/they assert to authority, muddled by self
> importance, self interest, greed, jealousies, anxiety, hate and revenge.
> > The scientific way that Pirsig described. It's also Shewharts and
> Demings way to build quality into a society, culture or system. First you
> have to see that something is wrong, and then come up with a hypothesis on
> why it is wrong. Then you plan how to fix it, carry out the fix, and study
> it after to see what happens, then you take action either way on whether it
> worked or not. They called it Plan, Do, Study and Act PDSA.
> >
> > Our basic educational systems, have not taught critical thinking,
> normally it is memorize this, he is an approved smart guy , and we have
> approved him.
> >
> > We are biological creatures and trained well by those who run the
> system, we are trained not to think. Nature creates quality and morality
> into a biological being. If I suffer an injury my blood clots at the source
> of the injury white blood cells standby to attack any bacteria.
> > That's quality, and it would be immoral if someone was to bleed out or
> bacteria invade his body to destroy him. Bacteria are a lower form of life
> it
> > would not be moral if a lower form of life could kill a higher form so
> easily.
> >
> > Intellectuals have managed to change society. African Americans were
> given the right to vote, by an intellectual struggle. There is a long list
> of other victories.
> >
> > A few years back It became known that the American congress had passed
> over 1500 policies and the majority of these had benfited only those
> wealthy congressman. How do you fix that? People who are leading a society
> that are run not by their intellect, but by biology. (Self interest, self
> importance and greed.)
> > They have and will never seek knowledge of equality, fairness, because
> you need a scientific mind for that, drift off in to that state of absent
> mindedness, gather your thoughts and observations, then struggle with it;
> the mind has to be in a pure innocent state, it may not be possible for the
> majority of politicians. If you can do this you will find something closer
> to the truth.
> >
> > Maybe a few of them may question and find an answer. What does it mean
> about me and my congressional colleagues ? It means we are motivated at a
> simple biological level
> > therefore I share something with pond scum.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> > To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:07:11 -0600 (MDT)
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > How do we nurture more intellects?
> >
> > From: WES STEWART
> > Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 3:21 PM
> > To: moq discuss
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hello Andrew,
> >
> > We do not blame our biological patterns but we see them for what they
> are, we contemplate then reflect if they are harmful to ourselves or
> others, then we attempt some change. Do something that breaks up your
> static patterns by using your intellect, by contemplating and reflecting to
> come up with some good ideas. If you unknowingly ate some bad meat, you
> would almost certainly throw up, this is quality in your biological system,
> it has value. It would be immoral for humanity that just because we ate bad
> meat we should die. There was some sort of evolution in our past, a dynamic
> quality that allow us to eat bad meat, not process it but get rid of it
> quickly.
> > If your biological static patterns rule rather than your intellect
> intervening at times, society has constructed prisons for that.
> > If society has hidden rules that abuse a group of individuals our
> intellect should act on this because it has knowledge of fairness and
> equality.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> > To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:07:52 -0600 (MDT)
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > So the separation of our selves into biological and intellectual I think
> is another sign that there is a missing link somewhere.
> >
> > The beauty of the MOQ is its unifying simplicity. It gives a framework
> by which we can better understand the world across all mediums be they
> scientific, spiritual or artistic. But it doesn’t give us an equally
> simplified framework as to how to apply it in our daily lives.
> >
> > We can understand MOQ deeply and yet still struggle to apply it in our
> daily lives, wrestling with the biological, the intellectual and other
> states of mind that each of us have to varying degrees.
> >
> > The fact that even Pirsig/Phaedrus’ character succumbs to his biological
> state more often than not is some proof to this element of human nature.
> >
> > In a nutshell, I think blaming the biological part of ourselves is a bit
> of a cop-out. As MOQ states, everything comes back to and is sourced from
> quality. To then apply this to ourselves but then give exceptions for this
> or that state of mind when we step out of high quality states dissipates
> the MOQ’s powerful framework.
> >
> > What is needed is not only a framework for understanding relationships
> of all things, but also a framework for the specific application of that to
> human beings. Personally, I think what makes humans unique from all other
> subjects beyond our awareness of our own various states, is our ability to
> direct and control our actions. Our ability to manifest intent into
> physical reality and thus influence quality. We want to create a race car,
> we can channel our intent towards that. We want to create an atomic bomb,
> we can do that, too. We want to land on the moon? Etc etc.
> >
> > I think breaking down the driving force behind these actions into states
> is similar to seeing the reality as a classical/romantic duality. It
> misses the forest through the trees. Instead we should focus on the
> driving force itself particularly as it relates to human beings. And that,
> to me, is intent.
> >
> > From: WES STEWART
> > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 9:21 PM
> > To: moq discuss
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hello Andrew,
> >
> > We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that
> intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that
> state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not
> trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find
> the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of
> mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for
> enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.
> >
> > However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical,
> easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard
> whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested ,
> pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're
> biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and
> revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves,
> they manipulate and are easily manipulated.
> >
> > It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had
> inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek
> revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later
> when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what
> he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to
> see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of
> matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you
> have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand
> it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was
> immoral and a human disaster.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> > To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as
> someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator,
> traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced
> dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that
> on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to
> use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma
> that puts morality and quality at odds?
> >
> > To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his
> quality work and creations?
> >
> > From: WES STEWART
> > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
> > To: moq discuss
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hello Andrew,
> >
> > Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge.
> A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a
> degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and
> sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is
> no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological
> person.
> >
> > Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they
> dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous
> breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in
> charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people.
> There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.
> >
> > A person who has a few university degree's means that they have
> memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does
> not make them an intellectual.
> >
> > Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather
> thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations
> for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
> > weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong
> feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It
> is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees
> voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being
> intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will
> not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> > To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more
> reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.
> >
> > Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the
> object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like
> the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and
> understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object
> that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to
> generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.
> >
> > But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with
> equality and morals?
> >
> > We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with
> things but then how do we channel this?
> >
> > The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan
> project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in
> their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that
> generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the
> laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we
> to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was
> a result of high quality work?
> >
> > For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a
> lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of
> quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum.
> Interested in everyone's thoughts.
> >
> > From: WES STEWART
> > Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
> > To: moq discuss
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Thanks for the reply Andrew;
> >
> > Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality.
> It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert
> Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.
> >
> > None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the
> other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance,
> self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may
> give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back
> when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.
> >
> > Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect,
> look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts
> and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place
> yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more,
> introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back
> analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on,
> it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like
> Pirsig.
> >
> > Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers
> a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and
> original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how
> marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so
> much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting
> someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his
> intellect has not moved.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> > To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hey Wes, good to meet you.
> >
> > So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its
> ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its
> implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what
> was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.
> >
> > However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step
> following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made
> Lila a weaker piece.
> >
> > The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what
> he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the
> critical question in my mind.
> >
> > Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an
> expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story
> and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila
> is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for
> Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.
> >
> > The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his
> own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality
> itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know
> that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is
> in the heart.
> >
> > I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and
> consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done
> with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest
> yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the
> parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own
> benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel
> for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing
> intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the
> action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the
> cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent
> intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken
> with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most
> would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with
> creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as
> morally good.
> >
> > I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy
> to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization,
> he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And
> thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he
> was or why he did what he did.
> >
> >
> > From: WES STEWART
> > Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
> > To: moq discuss
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hello Andrew,
> >
> > I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be
> on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.
> >
> > Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason;
> contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is
> what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and
> quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming.
> The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in
> order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.
> >
> > In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber
> doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look
> after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to
> take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best
> interest. His life without Lila
> > would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his
> morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.
> >
> > Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.
> > Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find
> purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world
> his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he
> abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor
> , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.
> >
> > Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you,
> bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have
> nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided
> to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He
> strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> > To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
> > Subject: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hello all,
> >
> > My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen
> recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most
> formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.
> >
> > So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth
> reaching out.
> >
> > It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader
> understanding of Quality.
> >
> > The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things,
> peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your
> quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language
> you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you
> voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make
> sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces
> of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature
> of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The
> representations have become the reality.
> >
> > And that’s a problem.
> >
> > The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship
> between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature
> of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel
> comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that
> that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by
> others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of
> the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.
> >
> > Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in
> dialogues about all things Quality.
> >
> > Sincerely,
> > Andrew
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[Dan Glover]

Hi Adrie,
Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!


On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
> the
> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
> emerge?......,
>
> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
> everything is anew every day.
>
> Adrie
>
>
>
>
> 2017-08-22 9:00 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Great discussion!
>>
>> Hey. Just an aside. Maybe. But maybe not. I just got back from viewing
>> the eclipse. First time I ever've seen totality. Had to check what I
>> was drinking for if someone'd slipped LSD into it or maybe diced up
>> psilocybin mushrooms on that breakfast burrito I had earlier. Took off
>> work and drove 400 miles for a totality lasting 2 minutes 40 seconds
>> and I'd do it again tomorrow were there another. Mindblowing.
>> Completely mindblowing.
>>
>> See, intellectually I knew exactly what an eclipse is. I knew what to
>> expect. But to witness that mofo... that was an experience. People've
>> asked me oh did it get dark and did you see stars and did the crickets
>> start into chirping and yes to all but Jesus God there were people
>> driving past me at the same moment the moon was blocking out the sun
>> and their headlights were on and but they never even pulled over to
>> look. And they were right there. Right there.
>>
>> One of the people I was with said hey it's because we're in Missouri.
>> And he wasn't joking. More, though, leading up to the eclipse I kept
>> getting nasty messages on Facebook saying: "am I the only one not
>> going to the eclipse?" And people are agreeing. Oh yeah. Big waste of
>> time, that. I'm not going. As if it is somehow okay to be jaded. No.
>> Expected. How one of the wonders of the world is right there above our
>> heads and we're too busy or too adultish or too know-it-all to take
>> the time and watch and those of us who do revel in the experience are
>> dullishly off-kilter, worthy of putdowns.
>>
>> I'm not much into politics. The wheel turns. Now is the time for
>> stupid people to rule. That'll pass as it always does. If you accept
>> the basic tenet of the MOQ, that quality and morality are identical,
>> then you might also see how what's better is driving evolution on all
>> four levels. And what's better doesn't necessarily mean intellect
>> always rules. I read this article about how birds what live along
>> roadways are evolving shorter wingspans. That doesn't presuppose as
>> some would have it an intelligent being overseeing such happenings nor
>> is it a matter of chance. Rather, birds with long wingspans are unable
>> to fly away quickly enough and are killed by cars thus unable to
>> propagate. Short wings are better.
>>
>> There are so many ah ha moments in life which we gloss over.
>> Especially should things not fit with our preconceived notion of the
>> world and our place in it. If the MOQ teaches us anything, it should
>> be to wake up. To be there. To give our attention to what is right in
>> front of us instead of forever planning for tomorrow.
>>
>> Anyway...
>>
>>

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[Andrew Chu]

Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?

Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.

Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.

We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.

That needs to change.

From: Dan Glover
Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Adrie,
Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!


On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
> the
> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
> emerge?......,
>
> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
> everything is anew every day.
>
> Adrie
>
>
>
>
> 2017-08-22 9:00 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi guys,
>>
>> Great discussion!
>>
>> Hey. Just an aside. Maybe. But maybe not. I just got back from viewing
>> the eclipse. First time I ever've seen totality. Had to check what I
>> was drinking for if someone'd slipped LSD into it or maybe diced up
>> psilocybin mushrooms on that breakfast burrito I had earlier. Took off
>> work and drove 400 miles for a totality lasting 2 minutes 40 seconds
>> and I'd do it again tomorrow were there another. Mindblowing.
>> Completely mindblowing.
>>
>> See, intellectually I knew exactly what an eclipse is. I knew what to
>> expect. But to witness that mofo... that was an experience. People've
>> asked me oh did it get dark and did you see stars and did the crickets
>> start into chirping and yes to all but Jesus God there were people
>> driving past me at the same moment the moon was blocking out the sun
>> and their headlights were on and but they never even pulled over to
>> look. And they were right there. Right there.
>>
>> One of the people I was with said hey it's because we're in Missouri.
>> And he wasn't joking. More, though, leading up to the eclipse I kept
>> getting nasty messages on Facebook saying: "am I the only one not
>> going to the eclipse?" And people are agreeing. Oh yeah. Big waste of
>> time, that. I'm not going. As if it is somehow okay to be jaded. No.
>> Expected. How one of the wonders of the world is right there above our
>> heads and we're too busy or too adultish or too know-it-all to take
>> the time and watch and those of us who do revel in the experience are
>> dullishly off-kilter, worthy of putdowns.
>>
>> I'm not much into politics. The wheel turns. Now is the time for
>> stupid people to rule. That'll pass as it always does. If you accept
>> the basic tenet of the MOQ, that quality and morality are identical,
>> then you might also see how what's better is driving evolution on all
>> four levels. And what's better doesn't necessarily mean intellect
>> always rules. I read this article about how birds what live along
>> roadways are evolving shorter wingspans. That doesn't presuppose as
>> some would have it an intelligent being overseeing such happenings nor
>> is it a matter of chance. Rather, birds with long wingspans are unable
>> to fly away quickly enough and are killed by cars thus unable to
>> propagate. Short wings are better.
>>
>> There are so many ah ha moments in life which we gloss over.
>> Especially should things not fit with our preconceived notion of the
>> world and our place in it. If the MOQ teaches us anything, it should
>> be to wake up. To be there. To give our attention to what is right in
>> front of us instead of forever planning for tomorrow.
>>
>> Anyway...
>>
>>

--
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[Dan Glover]

Andrew, all,

If money were no object, what would you do?

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>
> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>
> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>
> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>
> That needs to change.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Adrie,
> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>> the
>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>> emerge?......,
>>
>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>> everything is anew every day.
>>
>> Adrie


http://www.danglover.com
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[Andrew Chu]

Hi Dan,

Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?

I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.

It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.

Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.

Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.

My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.

So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.

I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.

I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.

The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.

I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.

The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.

So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.

I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.

From: Dan Glover
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Andrew, all,

If money were no object, what would you do?

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>
> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>
> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>
> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>
> That needs to change.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Adrie,
> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>> the
>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>> emerge?......,
>>
>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>> everything is anew every day.
>>
>> Adrie


http://www.danglover.com
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew;

Thanks for the reference for the video, "Jiro Dreams of Sushi", I just looked on Rotten Tomatoes review site, it was voted in at 99% by the critics, and 92% by the audience. No doubt it is a quality documentary, in a week or so I will watch it and give you feed back Andrew. What you faced at your previous job, many of us have faced similar situations. Very uncomfortable, an arrogant person that attempts to make a person lose respect for his/her self is not functioning on that "innocently seeking knowledge and answers pursuit", of the intellectual.

Your previous boss was a dominant "biologically", based individual, and yes I suppose in the animal world there is an Alpha male. However in the humanistic world we have Martin Luther King, Jesus,... to name a couple as our long remembered never forgotten humanistic Alpha males. What type of society, culture or organization would these dominant "biological" males create? Pursigs answer was that it would be an immoral one, a company culture with no values; illogical and irrational. How can a lower form dictate to a higher form?

What type of company would Lila create if she had the money? A dysfunctional company, based on a male looks, only if they were seen as sexy enough. There would be almost all males and very few females, maybe a few slutty ones that looked like her. However remember that Lila was attracted to Pursig, and how Pursig had stated that "Lila has quality" to Rigel. Lila was largely attracted to how Pursig could dance, everyone stopped dancing, and watched them both.
Pursig's static pattern of dance, that was trained by most dancing schools, was above most dance styles inherent in most individuals.

Lila buys Pursig some shirts, and wants to protect them from the rain, then finally gives up, she thinks that Pursig probably would never acknowledge her for buying the shirts. Pursig has no clue that this smaller shirt was bought for him and not for the doll.

What type of company would the "innocently seeking knowledge and answers pursuit" of the intellectual" create? (Everyone who is "innocently seeking knowledge and answers", qualifies and is instantly certified as having the quality to be a bona-fide intellectual). If you are a predominantly intellectual, you have the authority to destroy old intellectual patterns and create a company that is based on building a road to quality and continuous improvement. This is where things can become very good.

I am mostly William Edwards Deming schooled in quality, he would start off his four day seminars with the words "owners and upper management are the source of 96% of all company issues", at this time around 10% of his audience would immediately get up and leave.I imagine your previous employer, would no doubt fit in the 10% category. You do have a large amount of quality in you Andrew, to state "I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict." Awesome Andrew!!










From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 7:38:50 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Dan,

Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?

I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.

It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.

Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.

Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.

My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.

So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.

I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.

I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.

The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.

I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.

The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.

So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.

I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.

From: Dan Glover
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Andrew, all,

If money were no object, what would you do?

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>
> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>
> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>
> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>
> That needs to change.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Adrie,
> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>> the
>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>> emerge?......,
>>
>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>> everything is anew every day.
>>
>> Adrie


http://www.danglover.com
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[Andrew Chu]

Wes agree he was very much acting out of a biological “zero sum game” pattern. Unfortunate but worth avoiding.

And yes please watch jiro would be very interested in your thoughts or anyone else's!

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 11:33 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew;

Thanks for the reference for the video, "Jiro Dreams of Sushi", I just looked on Rotten Tomatoes review site, it was voted in at 99% by the critics, and 92% by the audience. No doubt it is a quality documentary, in a week or so I will watch it and give you feed back Andrew. What you faced at your previous job, many of us have faced similar situations. Very uncomfortable, an arrogant person that attempts to make a person lose respect for his/her self is not functioning on that "innocently seeking knowledge and answers pursuit", of the intellectual.

Your previous boss was a dominant "biologically", based individual, and yes I suppose in the animal world there is an Alpha male. However in the humanistic world we have Martin Luther King, Jesus,... to name a couple as our long remembered never forgotten humanistic Alpha males. What type of society, culture or organization would these dominant "biological" males create? Pursigs answer was that it would be an immoral one, a company culture with no values; illogical and irrational. How can a lower form dictate to a higher form?

What type of company would Lila create if she had the money? A dysfunctional company, based on a male looks, only if they were seen as sexy enough. There would be almost all males and very few females, maybe a few slutty ones that looked like her. However remember that Lila was attracted to Pursig, and how Pursig had stated that "Lila has quality" to Rigel. Lila was largely attracted to how Pursig could dance, everyone stopped dancing, and watched them both.
Pursig's static pattern of dance, that was trained by most dancing schools, was above most dance styles inherent in most individuals.

Lila buys Pursig some shirts, and wants to protect them from the rain, then finally gives up, she thinks that Pursig probably would never acknowledge her for buying the shirts. Pursig has no clue that this smaller shirt was bought for him and not for the doll.

What type of company would the "innocently seeking knowledge and answers pursuit" of the intellectual" create? (Everyone who is "innocently seeking knowledge and answers", qualifies and is instantly certified as having the quality to be a bona-fide intellectual). If you are a predominantly intellectual, you have the authority to destroy old intellectual patterns and create a company that is based on building a road to quality and continuous improvement. This is where things can become very good.

I am mostly William Edwards Deming schooled in quality, he would start off his four day seminars with the words "owners and upper management are the source of 96% of all company issues", at this time around 10% of his audience would immediately get up and leave.I imagine your previous employer, would no doubt fit in the 10% category. You do have a large amount of quality in you Andrew, to state "I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict." Awesome Andrew!!










From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 7:38:50 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Dan,

Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?

I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.

It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.

Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.

Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.

My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.

So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.

I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.

I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.

The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.

I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.

The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.

So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.

I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.

From: Dan Glover
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Andrew, all,

If money were no object, what would you do?

On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>
> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>
> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>
> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>
> That needs to change.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Adrie,
> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>> the
>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>> emerge?......,
>>
>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>> everything is anew every day.
>>
>> Adrie


http://www.danglover.com
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[Dan Glover]

Hello Andrew,

What I mean to ask is not what you have to do but rather what you are
meant to do. How far are you willing to go to find your purpose? And
if in fact you believe you have a purpose? Are you simply here to work
for some company a set number of years before they put you out to
pasture and bring in fresh meat to take your place? Or are you part of
something larger?

If money was no object, what would you do?

Much of Robert Pirsig's work is devoted to that question, at least the
way I read it. Consider his attempt at withholding grades in ZMM in
order to show his students that they knew what quality was even if
they couldn't describe it. The act of learning for learning's sake and
not to impress teacher and parents with grades. How do we take that
lesson and apply it to our own lives?

What is the quality of your life?

If let's say all of a sudden the parameters of how we judge success
were eliminated: 'Is this guy fired yet?' seems to qualify as such a
moment, would our purpose survive? And no, earning money is not a
purpose. We've taken that off the board already. So we could say
knowing how money is crucial is actually blinding us to what is really
important: our purpose. Rather than living for the sake of living, it
is easier to live to make money our purpose. Which it is not.

But why is that? Don't we have to go back to ZMM and those students
who discovered they weren't being graded and how they reacted? How
ultimately the experiment failed. How like grades we are so
indoctrinated to making money we cannot see beyond the means to an
end. How we take that as our purpose.

But all this is predicated upon knowing our purpose. Knowing what we
would do if indeed money was no object. How many people can answer
that question righteously? I don't mean typical generic answers like
quit my job take a vacation be a stay at homer but rather to
concretely know exactly what you are meant to do even if nobody was
paying you to do it.

And if you know that purpose, then are you actively achieving it?

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?
>
> I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.
>
> It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.
>
> Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.
>
> Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.
>
> My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.
>
> So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.
>
> I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.
>
> I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.
>
> The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.
>
> I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.
>
> The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.
>
> So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.
>
> I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>>
>> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>>
>> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>>
>> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>>
>> That needs to change.
>>
>> From: Dan Glover
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Adrie,
>> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>>> the
>>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>>> emerge?......,
>>>
>>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>>> everything is anew every day.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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ht

[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew and Dan,

There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.

We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.

It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.

Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 23:39:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

What I mean to ask is not what you have to do but rather what you are
meant to do. How far are you willing to go to find your purpose? And
if in fact you believe you have a purpose? Are you simply here to work
for some company a set number of years before they put you out to
pasture and bring in fresh meat to take your place? Or are you part of
something larger?

If money was no object, what would you do?

Much of Robert Pirsig's work is devoted to that question, at least the
way I read it. Consider his attempt at withholding grades in ZMM in
order to show his students that they knew what quality was even if
they couldn't describe it. The act of learning for learning's sake and
not to impress teacher and parents with grades. How do we take that
lesson and apply it to our own lives?

What is the quality of your life?

If let's say all of a sudden the parameters of how we judge success
were eliminated: 'Is this guy fired yet?' seems to qualify as such a
moment, would our purpose survive? And no, earning money is not a
purpose. We've taken that off the board already. So we could say
knowing how money is crucial is actually blinding us to what is really
important: our purpose. Rather than living for the sake of living, it
is easier to live to make money our purpose. Which it is not.

But why is that? Don't we have to go back to ZMM and those students
who discovered they weren't being graded and how they reacted? How
ultimately the experiment failed. How like grades we are so
indoctrinated to making money we cannot see beyond the means to an
end. How we take that as our purpose.

But all this is predicated upon knowing our purpose. Knowing what we
would do if indeed money was no object. How many people can answer
that question righteously? I don't mean typical generic answers like
quit my job take a vacation be a stay at homer but rather to
concretely know exactly what you are meant to do even if nobody was
paying you to do it.

And if you know that purpose, then are you actively achieving it?

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?
>
> I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.
>
> It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.
>
> Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.
>
> Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.
>
> My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.
>
> So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.
>
> I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.
>
> I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.
>
> The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.
>
> I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.
>
> The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.
>
> So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.
>
> I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>>
>> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>>
>> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>>
>> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>>
>> That needs to change.
>>
>> From: Dan Glover
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Adrie,
>> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>>> the
>>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>>> emerge?......,
>>>
>>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>>> everything is anew every day.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[Andrew Chu]

Great thoughts.

For me, purpose is inexorably tied to creating quality work. When you connect with an act or work, then it transforms to craft.

Ultimately I think that’s what we’re all here to find, our craft, the work that we uniquely connect with.

For me, yep, I’m very lucky that I do feel connected with the work I am doing, particularly with helping my son’s school. It’s like a positive vibration I feel when I am there and working with other parents, teachers, etc. I feel connected to my day job too but in a different way, more cerebral and less emotional. Not a lower quality, but different.

I think what’s great about this world is, if given a baseline of resources, many of us have the opportunity to explore and find those things that we uniquely connect with. Just takes some trial and error some times.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:01 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew and Dan,

There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.

We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.

It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.

Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 23:39:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

What I mean to ask is not what you have to do but rather what you are
meant to do. How far are you willing to go to find your purpose? And
if in fact you believe you have a purpose? Are you simply here to work
for some company a set number of years before they put you out to
pasture and bring in fresh meat to take your place? Or are you part of
something larger?

If money was no object, what would you do?

Much of Robert Pirsig's work is devoted to that question, at least the
way I read it. Consider his attempt at withholding grades in ZMM in
order to show his students that they knew what quality was even if
they couldn't describe it. The act of learning for learning's sake and
not to impress teacher and parents with grades. How do we take that
lesson and apply it to our own lives?

What is the quality of your life?

If let's say all of a sudden the parameters of how we judge success
were eliminated: 'Is this guy fired yet?' seems to qualify as such a
moment, would our purpose survive? And no, earning money is not a
purpose. We've taken that off the board already. So we could say
knowing how money is crucial is actually blinding us to what is really
important: our purpose. Rather than living for the sake of living, it
is easier to live to make money our purpose. Which it is not.

But why is that? Don't we have to go back to ZMM and those students
who discovered they weren't being graded and how they reacted? How
ultimately the experiment failed. How like grades we are so
indoctrinated to making money we cannot see beyond the means to an
end. How we take that as our purpose.

But all this is predicated upon knowing our purpose. Knowing what we
would do if indeed money was no object. How many people can answer
that question righteously? I don't mean typical generic answers like
quit my job take a vacation be a stay at homer but rather to
concretely know exactly what you are meant to do even if nobody was
paying you to do it.

And if you know that purpose, then are you actively achieving it?

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?
>
> I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.
>
> It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.
>
> Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.
>
> Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.
>
> My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.
>
> So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.
>
> I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.
>
> I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.
>
> The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.
>
> I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.
>
> The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.
>
> So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.
>
> I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>>
>> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>>
>> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>>
>> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>>
>> That needs to change.
>>
>> From: Dan Glover
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Adrie,
>> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>>> the
>>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>>> emerge?......,
>>>
>>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>>> everything is anew every day.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew;

Towards the end of the novel Lila, Pirsig comes up with a statement that good or quality is a noun. With the Platonic view of subject object, the object is always a noun. We do use nouns to describe both good and high quality, for instance that person is an angel or saint, we all know what that means, an angel is a noun. We do use nouns to describe people that are not that good, for example a dirt bag, a bag of shit.

Our science is based on only subject object, because they tell us that those are the only things that can be measured. Physics, chemistry, biology are only subject object observations. Pirsig rewrote values into our reality. Honesty fairness, respect, equality, and empathy are all real values, that can be measured , they are not subjective. Rudeness and ignorance can be measured and they are part of our reality, good is a noun and we can observe it , as equally well as the reaction of mixing sodium bicarbonate and vinegar.

It appears you are a good man Andrew, seeking that knowledge that sometimes comes as a spark of dynamic knowledge, to bring betterness to that educational culture, which is part of our society.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 2:17:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Great thoughts.

For me, purpose is inexorably tied to creating quality work. When you connect with an act or work, then it transforms to craft.

Ultimately I think that’s what we’re all here to find, our craft, the work that we uniquely connect with.

For me, yep, I’m very lucky that I do feel connected with the work I am doing, particularly with helping my son’s school. It’s like a positive vibration I feel when I am there and working with other parents, teachers, etc. I feel connected to my day job too but in a different way, more cerebral and less emotional. Not a lower quality, but different.

I think what’s great about this world is, if given a baseline of resources, many of us have the opportunity to explore and find those things that we uniquely connect with. Just takes some trial and error some times.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:01 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew and Dan,

There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.

We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.

It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.

Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 23:39:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

What I mean to ask is not what you have to do but rather what you are
meant to do. How far are you willing to go to find your purpose? And
if in fact you believe you have a purpose? Are you simply here to work
for some company a set number of years before they put you out to
pasture and bring in fresh meat to take your place? Or are you part of
something larger?

If money was no object, what would you do?

Much of Robert Pirsig's work is devoted to that question, at least the
way I read it. Consider his attempt at withholding grades in ZMM in
order to show his students that they knew what quality was even if
they couldn't describe it. The act of learning for learning's sake and
not to impress teacher and parents with grades. How do we take that
lesson and apply it to our own lives?

What is the quality of your life?

If let's say all of a sudden the parameters of how we judge success
were eliminated: 'Is this guy fired yet?' seems to qualify as such a
moment, would our purpose survive? And no, earning money is not a
purpose. We've taken that off the board already. So we could say
knowing how money is crucial is actually blinding us to what is really
important: our purpose. Rather than living for the sake of living, it
is easier to live to make money our purpose. Which it is not.

But why is that? Don't we have to go back to ZMM and those students
who discovered they weren't being graded and how they reacted? How
ultimately the experiment failed. How like grades we are so
indoctrinated to making money we cannot see beyond the means to an
end. How we take that as our purpose.

But all this is predicated upon knowing our purpose. Knowing what we
would do if indeed money was no object. How many people can answer
that question righteously? I don't mean typical generic answers like
quit my job take a vacation be a stay at homer but rather to
concretely know exactly what you are meant to do even if nobody was
paying you to do it.

And if you know that purpose, then are you actively achieving it?

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?
>
> I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.
>
> It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.
>
> Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.
>
> Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.
>
> My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.
>
> So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.
>
> I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.
>
> I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.
>
> The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.
>
> I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.
>
> The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.
>
> So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.
>
> I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>>
>> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>>
>> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>>
>> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>>
>> That needs to change.
>>
>> From: Dan Glover
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Adrie,
>> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>>> the
>>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>>> emerge?......,
>>>
>>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>>> everything is anew every day.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
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[Andrew Chu]

Thanks Wes. One more observation, a practical way to know when you have found some activity that you connect with is when you lose track of time. Like Pirsig’s mind wandered into the motorcycle, when your mind and body venture into an activity such that you later find yourself wondering “what time is it?” That’s usually a good sign! At least from my own experience.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 12:45 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew;

Towards the end of the novel Lila, Pirsig comes up with a statement that good or quality is a noun. With the Platonic view of subject object, the object is always a noun. We do use nouns to describe both good and high quality, for instance that person is an angel or saint, we all know what that means, an angel is a noun. We do use nouns to describe people that are not that good, for example a dirt bag, a bag of shit.

Our science is based on only subject object, because they tell us that those are the only things that can be measured. Physics, chemistry, biology are only subject object observations. Pirsig rewrote values into our reality. Honesty fairness, respect, equality, and empathy are all real values, that can be measured , they are not subjective. Rudeness and ignorance can be measured and they are part of our reality, good is a noun and we can observe it , as equally well as the reaction of mixing sodium bicarbonate and vinegar.

It appears you are a good man Andrew, seeking that knowledge that sometimes comes as a spark of dynamic knowledge, to bring betterness to that educational culture, which is part of our society.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 2:17:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Great thoughts.

For me, purpose is inexorably tied to creating quality work. When you connect with an act or work, then it transforms to craft.

Ultimately I think that’s what we’re all here to find, our craft, the work that we uniquely connect with.

For me, yep, I’m very lucky that I do feel connected with the work I am doing, particularly with helping my son’s school. It’s like a positive vibration I feel when I am there and working with other parents, teachers, etc. I feel connected to my day job too but in a different way, more cerebral and less emotional. Not a lower quality, but different.

I think what’s great about this world is, if given a baseline of resources, many of us have the opportunity to explore and find those things that we uniquely connect with. Just takes some trial and error some times.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:01 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew and Dan,

There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.

We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.

It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.

Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 23:39:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

What I mean to ask is not what you have to do but rather what you are
meant to do. How far are you willing to go to find your purpose? And
if in fact you believe you have a purpose? Are you simply here to work
for some company a set number of years before they put you out to
pasture and bring in fresh meat to take your place? Or are you part of
something larger?

If money was no object, what would you do?

Much of Robert Pirsig's work is devoted to that question, at least the
way I read it. Consider his attempt at withholding grades in ZMM in
order to show his students that they knew what quality was even if
they couldn't describe it. The act of learning for learning's sake and
not to impress teacher and parents with grades. How do we take that
lesson and apply it to our own lives?

What is the quality of your life?

If let's say all of a sudden the parameters of how we judge success
were eliminated: 'Is this guy fired yet?' seems to qualify as such a
moment, would our purpose survive? And no, earning money is not a
purpose. We've taken that off the board already. So we could say
knowing how money is crucial is actually blinding us to what is really
important: our purpose. Rather than living for the sake of living, it
is easier to live to make money our purpose. Which it is not.

But why is that? Don't we have to go back to ZMM and those students
who discovered they weren't being graded and how they reacted? How
ultimately the experiment failed. How like grades we are so
indoctrinated to making money we cannot see beyond the means to an
end. How we take that as our purpose.

But all this is predicated upon knowing our purpose. Knowing what we
would do if indeed money was no object. How many people can answer
that question righteously? I don't mean typical generic answers like
quit my job take a vacation be a stay at homer but rather to
concretely know exactly what you are meant to do even if nobody was
paying you to do it.

And if you know that purpose, then are you actively achieving it?

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?
>
> I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.
>
> It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.
>
> Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.
>
> Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.
>
> My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.
>
> So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.
>
> I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.
>
> I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.
>
> The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.
>
> I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.
>
> The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.
>
> So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.
>
> I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>>
>> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>>
>> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>>
>> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>>
>> That needs to change.
>>
>> From: Dan Glover
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Adrie,
>> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>>> the
>>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>>> emerge?......,
>>>
>>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>>> everything is anew every day.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew;

Agreed, your mind is in a good spot and that's quality. I am not religious but I have read some ancient text, I do not believe in magic and miracles of the bible, however the statement "heaven is within", was written by either Matthew , Mark , Luke or John, and it qualifies something with me.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 8:16:24 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks Wes. One more observation, a practical way to know when you have found some activity that you connect with is when you lose track of time. Like Pirsig’s mind wandered into the motorcycle, when your mind and body venture into an activity such that you later find yourself wondering “what time is it?” That’s usually a good sign! At least from my own experience.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 12:45 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew;

Towards the end of the novel Lila, Pirsig comes up with a statement that good or quality is a noun. With the Platonic view of subject object, the object is always a noun. We do use nouns to describe both good and high quality, for instance that person is an angel or saint, we all know what that means, an angel is a noun. We do use nouns to describe people that are not that good, for example a dirt bag, a bag of shit.

Our science is based on only subject object, because they tell us that those are the only things that can be measured. Physics, chemistry, biology are only subject object observations. Pirsig rewrote values into our reality. Honesty fairness, respect, equality, and empathy are all real values, that can be measured , they are not subjective. Rudeness and ignorance can be measured and they are part of our reality, good is a noun and we can observe it , as equally well as the reaction of mixing sodium bicarbonate and vinegar.

It appears you are a good man Andrew, seeking that knowledge that sometimes comes as a spark of dynamic knowledge, to bring betterness to that educational culture, which is part of our society.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 2:17:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Great thoughts.

For me, purpose is inexorably tied to creating quality work. When you connect with an act or work, then it transforms to craft.

Ultimately I think that’s what we’re all here to find, our craft, the work that we uniquely connect with.

For me, yep, I’m very lucky that I do feel connected with the work I am doing, particularly with helping my son’s school. It’s like a positive vibration I feel when I am there and working with other parents, teachers, etc. I feel connected to my day job too but in a different way, more cerebral and less emotional. Not a lower quality, but different.

I think what’s great about this world is, if given a baseline of resources, many of us have the opportunity to explore and find those things that we uniquely connect with. Just takes some trial and error some times.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:01 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew and Dan,

There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.

We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.

It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.

Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 23:39:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

What I mean to ask is not what you have to do but rather what you are
meant to do. How far are you willing to go to find your purpose? And
if in fact you believe you have a purpose? Are you simply here to work
for some company a set number of years before they put you out to
pasture and bring in fresh meat to take your place? Or are you part of
something larger?

If money was no object, what would you do?

Much of Robert Pirsig's work is devoted to that question, at least the
way I read it. Consider his attempt at withholding grades in ZMM in
order to show his students that they knew what quality was even if
they couldn't describe it. The act of learning for learning's sake and
not to impress teacher and parents with grades. How do we take that
lesson and apply it to our own lives?

What is the quality of your life?

If let's say all of a sudden the parameters of how we judge success
were eliminated: 'Is this guy fired yet?' seems to qualify as such a
moment, would our purpose survive? And no, earning money is not a
purpose. We've taken that off the board already. So we could say
knowing how money is crucial is actually blinding us to what is really
important: our purpose. Rather than living for the sake of living, it
is easier to live to make money our purpose. Which it is not.

But why is that? Don't we have to go back to ZMM and those students
who discovered they weren't being graded and how they reacted? How
ultimately the experiment failed. How like grades we are so
indoctrinated to making money we cannot see beyond the means to an
end. How we take that as our purpose.

But all this is predicated upon knowing our purpose. Knowing what we
would do if indeed money was no object. How many people can answer
that question righteously? I don't mean typical generic answers like
quit my job take a vacation be a stay at homer but rather to
concretely know exactly what you are meant to do even if nobody was
paying you to do it.

And if you know that purpose, then are you actively achieving it?

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?
>
> I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.
>
> It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.
>
> Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.
>
> Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.
>
> My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.
>
> So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.
>
> I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.
>
> I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.
>
> The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.
>
> I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.
>
> The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.
>
> So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.
>
> I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>>
>> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>>
>> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>>
>> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>>
>> That needs to change.
>>
>> From: Dan Glover
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Adrie,
>> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>>> the
>>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>>> emerge?......,
>>>
>>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>>> everything is anew every day.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
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[WES STEWART]

I missed a mark, it was to be Aristotle that was more subject, object, and not Plato, Plato was more of a Sophist



From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 8:32:19 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew;

Agreed, your mind is in a good spot and that's quality. I am not religious but I have read some ancient text, I do not believe in magic and miracles of the bible, however the statement "heaven is within", was written by either Matthew , Mark , Luke or John, and it qualifies something with me.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 8:16:24 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Thanks Wes. One more observation, a practical way to know when you have found some activity that you connect with is when you lose track of time. Like Pirsig’s mind wandered into the motorcycle, when your mind and body venture into an activity such that you later find yourself wondering “what time is it?” That’s usually a good sign! At least from my own experience.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Friday, September 1, 2017 12:45 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew;

Towards the end of the novel Lila, Pirsig comes up with a statement that good or quality is a noun. With the Platonic view of subject object, the object is always a noun. We do use nouns to describe both good and high quality, for instance that person is an angel or saint, we all know what that means, an angel is a noun. We do use nouns to describe people that are not that good, for example a dirt bag, a bag of shit.

Our science is based on only subject object, because they tell us that those are the only things that can be measured. Physics, chemistry, biology are only subject object observations. Pirsig rewrote values into our reality. Honesty fairness, respect, equality, and empathy are all real values, that can be measured , they are not subjective. Rudeness and ignorance can be measured and they are part of our reality, good is a noun and we can observe it , as equally well as the reaction of mixing sodium bicarbonate and vinegar.

It appears you are a good man Andrew, seeking that knowledge that sometimes comes as a spark of dynamic knowledge, to bring betterness to that educational culture, which is part of our society.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 2:17:19 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Great thoughts.

For me, purpose is inexorably tied to creating quality work. When you connect with an act or work, then it transforms to craft.

Ultimately I think that’s what we’re all here to find, our craft, the work that we uniquely connect with.

For me, yep, I’m very lucky that I do feel connected with the work I am doing, particularly with helping my son’s school. It’s like a positive vibration I feel when I am there and working with other parents, teachers, etc. I feel connected to my day job too but in a different way, more cerebral and less emotional. Not a lower quality, but different.

I think what’s great about this world is, if given a baseline of resources, many of us have the opportunity to explore and find those things that we uniquely connect with. Just takes some trial and error some times.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2017 12:01 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew and Dan,

There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.

We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.

It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.

Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.

----- Original Message -----
From: Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>
To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Mon, 28 Aug 2017 23:39:58 -0600 (MDT)
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew,

What I mean to ask is not what you have to do but rather what you are
meant to do. How far are you willing to go to find your purpose? And
if in fact you believe you have a purpose? Are you simply here to work
for some company a set number of years before they put you out to
pasture and bring in fresh meat to take your place? Or are you part of
something larger?

If money was no object, what would you do?

Much of Robert Pirsig's work is devoted to that question, at least the
way I read it. Consider his attempt at withholding grades in ZMM in
order to show his students that they knew what quality was even if
they couldn't describe it. The act of learning for learning's sake and
not to impress teacher and parents with grades. How do we take that
lesson and apply it to our own lives?

What is the quality of your life?

If let's say all of a sudden the parameters of how we judge success
were eliminated: 'Is this guy fired yet?' seems to qualify as such a
moment, would our purpose survive? And no, earning money is not a
purpose. We've taken that off the board already. So we could say
knowing how money is crucial is actually blinding us to what is really
important: our purpose. Rather than living for the sake of living, it
is easier to live to make money our purpose. Which it is not.

But why is that? Don't we have to go back to ZMM and those students
who discovered they weren't being graded and how they reacted? How
ultimately the experiment failed. How like grades we are so
indoctrinated to making money we cannot see beyond the means to an
end. How we take that as our purpose.

But all this is predicated upon knowing our purpose. Knowing what we
would do if indeed money was no object. How many people can answer
that question righteously? I don't mean typical generic answers like
quit my job take a vacation be a stay at homer but rather to
concretely know exactly what you are meant to do even if nobody was
paying you to do it.

And if you know that purpose, then are you actively achieving it?

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 8:38 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,
>
> Interesting question. So just about two years ago I faced this very question, or at least, the inverse of it, i.e. even if money were an objet what would I not be willing to do?
>
> I had worked at a company for five years and it was a good job. Not a dream job, not bliss, but good. Good paying, good people (mostly) and generally engaging. In the last year, things started to turn towards a very low quality situation.
>
> It’s one of those situations where life reveals to you some options. I had the option to ultimately work for someone who I didn’t respect and in my view, didn’t respect me.
>
> Aside: he at one point pointed to me in an open office setting and jokingly said without actually joking “Is this guy fired yet”? He is and was the president of the company and I was, at the time, working my tail off to fix a critical problem and, while I don’t do anything in expectation of deference, I certainly don’t believe I deserve that type of attitude or treatment. Just because he was in an open political feud at that time with my direct manager at the time, does not merit that type of petty behavior, particularly from someone who is in a leadership position like that. A bit stressed and particularly engaged in some vexing work, he broke whatever quality connection I was trying to invest in my work, and so I looked him in the eye and responded simply “that would be a mistake”. He stood back a bit, unsure how to take this as he had never had a subordinate react this way and after a moment responded “well it’s not the first time the company made a mistake” and walked away.
>
> Needless to say, having someone openly challenge him did not put me on his favorites list. So the writing was on the wall and, unsurprisingly, my work situation became more and more precarious as he pulled strings using whatever political means he had.
>
> My option was thus as follows: continue to work and get paychecks in an increasingly low quality situation or make a decision that even if money were an object, I would not subject myself to that declining quality.
>
> So in September 2015, with one child and one on the way, I quit.
>
> I had no job lined up, I was accused of secretly having a job already with one of our competitors, of basically being a corporate spy, to which I simply and flatly denied.
>
> I don’t recommend people take this line of action, cold turkey as it were. I am very fortunate that I was able to save enough and that my family was supportive enough that I could essentially leave this situation behind and have some time to figure out my next move.
>
> The next year I spent reflecting on exactly the question you asked.
>
> I spent time writing, which is something I realized I enjoyed to do even published a short collection of essays about quality (which probably no one has read but that is ok). My son’s public school district was thrown into a giant controversy touching on racial and socioeconomic segregation literally the month after I quit which added to an already uncertain situation. I spent some time creating software which I also enjoyed.
>
> The interesting thing is, while I didn’t know it at the time, each of these activities/events has played a part in getting to my current pattern if you will. The software I made didn’t amount to much but it helped open conversations to my current employer who, in contrast to my prior executive, I truly respect and is teaching me so much every day. My son’s school situation struck me as a disaster at first but since then I have invested myself into building the school and joined the school’s leadership team as a parent in hopes of creating something new, a third way between overpriced private schools and segregated public schools.
>
> So long story short, I know money is crucial and again, I don’t propose others take the drastic route I did, but I do think there are ways to allocate time towards things that, even if they don’t generate money, offer psychic, emotional and perhaps even karmic value that is very hard to predict. Watch one less hour of tv a week and write. Skip the first half of that big game on Sunday and go for a run. Instead of dropping your child straight off at school and picking them straight up, stop in and ask if they need help with anything. I’m sure the folks on this list already do a lot of these things in big and small ways so this is preaching to the choir.
>
> I guess what I’m trying to say is no matter what it is you think you would want to do, just try it, but try it consistently. In short weekly sessions perhaps at first. And if you find you like it, you may naturally allocate more time. If you don’t connect with it, then try something else, no harm done. And don’t necessarily do it with the money in mind, you have your day job for that hopefully, do it because you connect with it. It’s an investment in quality and, if anything, the last two years has taught me that investments in quality do come back to you in sometimes unpredictable and surprising ways.
>
> From: Dan Glover
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 12:09 AM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>>
>> Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect with and venture into that quality connection.
>>
>> Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression across the world.
>>
>> We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing, strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to express our quality and so little quality to express.
>>
>> That needs to change.
>>
>> From: Dan Glover
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Adrie,
>> Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>>> the
>>> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>>> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>>> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for them,and
>>> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>>> emerge?......,
>>>
>>> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>>> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>>> everything is anew every day.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
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[Dan Glover]

Wes, all,

I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
is true for one person isn't for another.

Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.

Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
family. Not doing philosophy.



On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>
> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>
> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>
> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>
> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>

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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan;

I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.



From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
is true for one person isn't for another.

Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.

Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
family. Not doing philosophy.



On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>
> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>
> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>
> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>
> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>

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[Dan Glover]

Wes, all,

I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
is no true reality? From Lila:

"Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."

"The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."

"Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know­ able, or
there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."

A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:

"There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.

" This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
sub­ject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
truths to exist.

"Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."

"One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
our history and current patterns of values."

Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
specify why.

Thanks



On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
> is true for one person isn't for another.
>
> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
>
> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
> family. Not doing philosophy.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>>
>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>>
>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>>
>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>>
>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html



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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan;

What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good) as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around; the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who knows.

I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not know.



From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
is no true reality? From Lila:

"Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."

"The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."

"Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know­ able, or
there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."

A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:

"There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.

" This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
sub­ject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
truths to exist.

"Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."

"One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
our history and current patterns of values."

Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
specify why.

Thanks



On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
> is true for one person isn't for another.
>
> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
>
> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
> family. Not doing philosophy.
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>>
>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>>
>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>>
>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>>
>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html



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[Adrie Kintziger]

what i fail to understand is the difference in philosophical understanding
in the first alinea and the last.You seem to have expert level skills in
the first sentence, and not even an idea in general about the presented
model in Pirsig's work al together. ATtacking the model itself, the
example,Will not lead to a solution,as in the given situation,there is no
problem,we made iT up..........Notting else.I do not think you have a
philosphical background or understanding about literature inGeneral,...no
problem for me, however,post casual of you like.Offer your solution.
adrie. ANd for Dan,you were richt, i Will
not dismiss anything in the work Cloud Atlas,We Can discussie the whole
book of you like!Need to study iT,its a masterpiece!

Op zondag 3 september 2017 heeft WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> het volgende
geschreven:

> Hello Dan;
>
> What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The
> sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing
> vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also
> measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good)
> as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around;
> the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the
> automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between
> them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is
> that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do
> not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of
> Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who
> knows.
>
> I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the
> space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not
> know.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> is no true reality? From Lila:
>
> "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
>
> "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
>
> "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know­ able, or
> there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
>
> A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
>
> "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
>
> " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> sub­ject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> truths to exist.
>
> "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
>
> "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> our history and current patterns of values."
>
> Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> specify why.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca <javascript:;>>
> wrote:
> > Hello Dan;
> >
> > I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he
> is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the
> reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates
> that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely
> different.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Wes, all,
> >
> > I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
> > it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
> > their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
> > through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
> > is true for one person isn't for another.
> >
> > Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
> > quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
> > biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
> > between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
> > to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
> >
> > Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
> > Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
> > comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
> > you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
> > your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
> > poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
> > family. Not doing philosophy.
> >
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> Hello Andrew and Dan,
> >>
> >> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our
> biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right,
> you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its
> not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile
> that are the only things we can measure.
> >>
> >> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not
> subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
> >>
> >> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because
> it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact
> with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp
> prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it
> is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side,
> because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not
> rely on comfort level or money.
> >>
> >> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at
> that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul
> Hilberg.
> >>
> >
> > http://www.danglover.com
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>
>
>
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[Dan Glover]

Wes, all,

Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.

I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
along the way, but hey.

I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
earning it. Until it is too late.

One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
me some living. So there's that...

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good) as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around; the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who knows.
>
> I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not know.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> is no true reality? From Lila:
>
> "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
>
> "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
>
> "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know­ able, or
> there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
>
> A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
>
> "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
>
> " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> sub­ject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> truths to exist.
>
> "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
>
> "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> our history and current patterns of values."
>
> Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> specify why.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hello Dan;
>>
>> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Wes, all,
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
>> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
>> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
>> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
>> is true for one person isn't for another.
>>
>> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
>> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
>> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
>> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
>> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
>>
>> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
>> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
>> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
>> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
>> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
>> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
>> family. Not doing philosophy.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>>>
>>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>>>
>>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>>>
>>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>>>
>>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
>
>
> --
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[WES STEWART]

Hell Dan and All;

I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.

Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically dominated human beings.


From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.

I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
along the way, but hey.

I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
earning it. Until it is too late.

One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
me some living. So there's that...

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good) as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around; the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who knows.
>
> I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not know.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> is no true reality? From Lila:
>
> "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
>
> "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
>
> "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know­ able, or
> there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
>
> A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
>
> "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
>
> " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> sub­ject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> truths to exist.
>
> "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
>
> "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> our history and current patterns of values."
>
> Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> specify why.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hello Dan;
>>
>> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Wes, all,
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
>> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
>> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
>> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
>> is true for one person isn't for another.
>>
>> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
>> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
>> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
>> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
>> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
>>
>> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
>> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
>> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
>> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
>> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
>> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
>> family. Not doing philosophy.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>>>
>>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>>>
>>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>>>
>>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>>>
>>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
>
>
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew ;

I hope you are still here and would like to read some of your essays on quality.


From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hell Dan and All;

I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.

Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically dominated human beings.


From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.

I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
along the way, but hey.

I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
earning it. Until it is too late.

One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
me some living. So there's that...

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good) as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around; the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who knows.
>
> I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not know.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> is no true reality? From Lila:
>
> "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
>
> "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
>
> "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know­ able, or
> there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
>
> A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
>
> "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
>
> " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> sub­ject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> truths to exist.
>
> "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
>
> "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> our history and current patterns of values."
>
> Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> specify why.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hello Dan;
>>
>> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Wes, all,
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
>> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
>> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
>> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
>> is true for one person isn't for another.
>>
>> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
>> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
>> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
>> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
>> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
>>
>> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
>> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
>> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
>> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
>> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
>> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
>> family. Not doing philosophy.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>>>
>>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>>>
>>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>>>
>>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>>>
>>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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>
>
>
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[Andrew Chu]

Hello all,

I am still here! I’ve been reading the healthy debate, it’s great to converse with others that think so deeply about Quality.

Personally, my opinion is that you are both right! Quality is both unknowable and infinitely variable as well as the one true reality.

It is infinitely variable and unknowable because it exists between an observer and observed and it varies for every pair of observer/observed in the universe. What one knows as high quality another may know as low, etc. In this sense, what one observes as reality would not be congruent with what another observes.

That said, to Wes’s point, just because what one observes is uniquely distinct to you and only you, does not make it any less real or true. The relationship between you and everything you observe is very real. To know that what you see as quality in a tree, a rock, a pizza slice is not actually inherent in that thing, doesn’t make it ephemeral, it makes it more personal.

Now, the fact that observations and quality can be shared amongst multiple observers does not necessarily make the quality in the observed more real, but it does improve the quality *between the observers*. It creates stronger relationships between observers when they have a sense of shared experience or point of view.

Not sure if this makes sense but I found both sides making equally valid and true points. The beauty of Quality is that these seemingly incompatible viewpoints are actually nicely consistent.

And wes, sure! Trying to think which pieces may be most interesting for you all. Two I hope you enjoy as my initial reflections on quality and the third I would be very interested in feedback on the framework I have been meditating on for a while.

The Secret of In-N-Out’s Success

A Lesson from Jiro

The Selective Dissonance of Hateful Gods

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 12:45 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew ;

I hope you are still here and would like to read some of your essays on quality.


From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hell Dan and All;

I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.

Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically dominated human beings.


From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.

I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
along the way, but hey.

I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
earning it. Until it is too late.

One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
me some living. So there's that...

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good) as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around; the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who knows.
>
> I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not know.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> is no true reality? From Lila:
>
> "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
>
> "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
>
> "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know able, or
> there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
>
> A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
>
> "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
>
> " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> truths to exist.
>
> "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
>
> "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> our history and current patterns of values."
>
> Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> specify why.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hello Dan;
>>
>> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Wes, all,
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
>> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
>> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
>> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
>> is true for one person isn't for another.
>>
>> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
>> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
>> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
>> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
>> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
>>
>> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
>> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
>> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
>> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
>> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
>> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
>> family. Not doing philosophy.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>>>
>>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>>>
>>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>>>
>>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>>>
>>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
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>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
>
>
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Ardie, Andrew, Dan;

Do not worry about anything you might have said Ardie; its all good just focus on your health and recovery.

Pirsig talked about the static patterns of quality, and that you need dynamic quality in order to change these patterns.
Deming and Shewhart, have a simple mathematical model that measures the current, static patterns. Both of these men
call "static patterns", a SYSTEM that is under statistical process control and there is a precise numerical value that is given to them.

A minimum of twenty statistical samples are taken, from this we can calculate, the average, standard deviation and 3 levels further out to 3 sigma.

Anything beyond sigma 3 they call "special variation", and it is assignable to something, this is Pirsigs "dynamic quality".
Pirsigs "dynamic quality" is always positive however, with Shewharts chart it can go either way with positive or negative quality.

This tool is not difficult to create, and you can make one in about 5 minutes, to measure quality or levels of safety on a spread sheet.
You can then embark on a path that Pirsig describes as "betterness", or as Deming describes as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous
Improvement. Most manufacturers of cars, and planes, and some manufactures of trains use control charts.




From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 9:35:16 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello all,

I am still here! I’ve been reading the healthy debate, it’s great to converse with others that think so deeply about Quality.

Personally, my opinion is that you are both right! Quality is both unknowable and infinitely variable as well as the one true reality.

It is infinitely variable and unknowable because it exists between an observer and observed and it varies for every pair of observer/observed in the universe. What one knows as high quality another may know as low, etc. In this sense, what one observes as reality would not be congruent with what another observes.

That said, to Wes’s point, just because what one observes is uniquely distinct to you and only you, does not make it any less real or true. The relationship between you and everything you observe is very real. To know that what you see as quality in a tree, a rock, a pizza slice is not actually inherent in that thing, doesn’t make it ephemeral, it makes it more personal.

Now, the fact that observations and quality can be shared amongst multiple observers does not necessarily make the quality in the observed more real, but it does improve the quality *between the observers*. It creates stronger relationships between observers when they have a sense of shared experience or point of view.

Not sure if this makes sense but I found both sides making equally valid and true points. The beauty of Quality is that these seemingly incompatible viewpoints are actually nicely consistent.

And wes, sure! Trying to think which pieces may be most interesting for you all. Two I hope you enjoy as my initial reflections on quality and the third I would be very interested in feedback on the framework I have been meditating on for a while.

The Secret of In-N-Out’s Success

A Lesson from Jiro

The Selective Dissonance of Hateful Gods

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 12:45 AM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Andrew ;

I hope you are still here and would like to read some of your essays on quality.


From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hell Dan and All;

I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.

Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically dominated human beings.


From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.

I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
along the way, but hey.

I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
earning it. Until it is too late.

One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
me some living. So there's that...

On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good) as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around; the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who knows.
>
> I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not know.
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> is no true reality? From Lila:
>
> "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
>
> "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
>
> "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know able, or
> there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
>
> A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
>
> "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
>
> " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> truths to exist.
>
> "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
>
> "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> our history and current patterns of values."
>
> Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> specify why.
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Hello Dan;
>>
>> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely different.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Wes, all,
>>
>> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
>> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
>> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
>> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
>> is true for one person isn't for another.
>>
>> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
>> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
>> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
>> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
>> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
>>
>> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
>> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
>> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
>> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
>> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
>> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
>> family. Not doing philosophy.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
>>>
>>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right, you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile that are the only things we can measure.
>>>
>>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
>>>
>>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life, because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side, because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not rely on comfort level or money.
>>>
>>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul Hilberg.
>>>
>>
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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>
>
>
> --
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http://moq.o

[Adrie Kintziger]

Your swinging loop for betterness is not a new idea nor a crazy idea.It is
correct that they are found in elektronics, aviation., and fuzzy logic
driven Washing machines. The entire idea however , sinks completely down
the drain of we try to aply it to philosophy. Words and terms as
trust, love,quality not only do not Carry a numeric value,even if given
one, or added one,the machine's pendulum Will not swing back and forth, as
you are claiming, but iT Will rotate the entire circel around,if we forget
To instruct everyone on earth to use the same value's for the scale, the
max range, and the numeric value's of the words!. even when we agree to
use a scripted protocol and the numeric value's of love, trust and quality
worldwide, and the pendulum swings and seeks for betternes in the results,
a matematician Can always take the result and add 1 to iT,and so Can
anyone else!, feel Free to try. in fact the whole idea is not a usefull
idea to apply on words.Its like trying to make a cake with only numeric
ingrediënts. they do not taste Well.We are not even talking about definable
or Indefinable. BUt stay on path in Search for betterness,you Will learn!
ADrie

Op vrijdag 8 september 2017 heeft WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> het volgende
geschreven:

> Hello Ardie, Andrew, Dan;
>
> Do not worry about anything you might have said Ardie; its all good just
> focus on your health and recovery.
>
> Pirsig talked about the static patterns of quality, and that you need
> dynamic quality in order to change these patterns.
> Deming and Shewhart, have a simple mathematical model that measures the
> current, static patterns. Both of these men
> call "static patterns", a SYSTEM that is under statistical process control
> and there is a precise numerical value that is given to them.
>
> A minimum of twenty statistical samples are taken, from this we can
> calculate, the average, standard deviation and 3 levels further out to 3
> sigma.
>
> Anything beyond sigma 3 they call "special variation", and it is
> assignable to something, this is Pirsigs "dynamic quality".
> Pirsigs "dynamic quality" is always positive however, with Shewharts chart
> it can go either way with positive or negative quality.
>
> This tool is not difficult to create, and you can make one in about 5
> minutes, to measure quality or levels of safety on a spread sheet.
> You can then embark on a path that Pirsig describes as "betterness", or as
> Deming describes as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous
> Improvement. Most manufacturers of cars, and planes, and some manufactures
> of trains use control charts.
>
>
>
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 9:35:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am still here! I’ve been reading the healthy debate, it’s great to
> converse with others that think so deeply about Quality.
>
> Personally, my opinion is that you are both right! Quality is both
> unknowable and infinitely variable as well as the one true reality.
>
> It is infinitely variable and unknowable because it exists between an
> observer and observed and it varies for every pair of observer/observed in
> the universe. What one knows as high quality another may know as low, etc.
> In this sense, what one observes as reality would not be congruent with
> what another observes.
>
> That said, to Wes’s point, just because what one observes is uniquely
> distinct to you and only you, does not make it any less real or true. The
> relationship between you and everything you observe is very real. To know
> that what you see as quality in a tree, a rock, a pizza slice is not
> actually inherent in that thing, doesn’t make it ephemeral, it makes it
> more personal.
>
> Now, the fact that observations and quality can be shared amongst multiple
> observers does not necessarily make the quality in the observed more real,
> but it does improve the quality *between the observers*. It creates
> stronger relationships between observers when they have a sense of shared
> experience or point of view.
>
> Not sure if this makes sense but I found both sides making equally valid
> and true points. The beauty of Quality is that these seemingly incompatible
> viewpoints are actually nicely consistent.
>
> And wes, sure! Trying to think which pieces may be most interesting for
> you all. Two I hope you enjoy as my initial reflections on quality and the
> third I would be very interested in feedback on the framework I have been
> meditating on for a while.
>
> The Secret of In-N-Out’s Success
>
> A Lesson from Jiro
>
> The Selective Dissonance of Hateful Gods
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 12:45 AM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew ;
>
> I hope you are still here and would like to read some of your essays on
> quality.
>
>
> From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hell Dan and All;
>
> I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William
> Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming
> were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at
> Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of
> continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used
> their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>
> Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM,
> in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically
> dominated human beings.
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
> that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
> future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
> mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
> and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
> look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.
>
> I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
> New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
> the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
> near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
> out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
> wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
> it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
> her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
> on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
> sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
> along the way, but hey.
>
> I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
> Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
> choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
> us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
> evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
> order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
> shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
> earning it. Until it is too late.
>
> One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
> tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
> petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
> torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
> horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
> Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
> me some living. So there's that...
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > Hello Dan;
> >
> > What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The
> sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing
> vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also
> measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good)
> as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around;
> the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the
> automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between
> them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is
> that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do
> not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of
> Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who
> knows.
> >
> > I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the
> space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not
> know.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Wes, all,
> >
> > I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> > is no true reality? From Lila:
> >
> > "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> > reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> > Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> > they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
> >
> > "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> > called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> > Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> > definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> > independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
> >
> > "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> > there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> > things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know able, or
> > there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> > of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> > definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> > a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
> >
> > A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> > quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> > define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
> >
> > "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> > from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> > Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> > distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> > thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> > value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> > the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> > here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> > the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> > subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
> >
> > " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> > to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> > subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> > on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> > the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> > things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> > constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> > ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> > truths to exist.
> >
> > "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
> >
> > "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> > things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> > this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> > something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> > realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> > with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> > simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> > of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> > more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> > our history and current patterns of values."
> >
> > Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> > specify why.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> Hello Dan;
> >>
> >> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he
> is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the
> reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates
> that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely
> different.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>
> >> Wes, all,
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
> >> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
> >> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
> >> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
> >> is true for one person isn't for another.
> >>
> >> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
> >> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
> >> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
> >> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
> >> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
> >>
> >> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
> >> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
> >> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
> >> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
> >> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
> >> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
> >> family. Not doing philosophy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
> >>>
> >>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our
> biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right,
> you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its
> not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile
> that are the only things we can measure.
> >>>
> >>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not
> subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
> >>>
> >>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life,
> because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you
> interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration
> camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however
> it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side,
> because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not
> rely on comfort level or money.
> >>>
> >>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at
> that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul
> Hilberg.
> >>>
> >>
> >> http://www.danglover.com
> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> >> Archives:
> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> >> Archives:
> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --
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[Andrew Chu]

Hi all,

Once again, interesting topic. Can quality be numerically defined? If, in the case of Wes’s example, we are focused on the particular definition of quality whereby we are trying to reduce unexpected variances and defects, then, yes, it can be to a degree. But can this number then be extrapolated to the capital Q “Quality”?

Here I am not so sure. A similar argument could be made for the less scientific but likely more ubiquitous rankings for consumer goods. In particular, those goods that score 5 stars such as the iPhone, the rolls Royce, etc are particularly interesting to think about. Undoubtedly, these numbers are earned by way of a large number of people attesting to their quality.

However, again, can this then be extrapolated to capital Q “Quality”?

I would argue no, not fully. The reason for this is that for each example, even six sigma, quality in those instances is determined and set by an observer or set of observers. Those sets of observers may be triangulating or optimizing towards a shared perspective on quality, but even that is relative nonetheless.

For example, a scientist in research and development who prioritizes six sigma may never stumble upon those moments of serendipitous discovery, e.g. 3M post-it notes, the apple hitting newton, etc that their livelihood depends on. Whereas managing deviation to six degrees is one party’s judgment of quality, it may very well be the antithesis of another’s. The same goes for consumer good rankings. How do we judge an iPhone or rolls Royce that is now six years old? It was five stars at the time it was released, but is it still now five stars? Perhaps some would judge it higher, like a finely aged wine, perhaps others would judge it lower, by way of them having obsolete features. Thus, what was once five stars at a moment in time was only perceived as meriting five stars relative to that moment and to the congruence of values that people shared at that particular time. It was wholly relative to the party of observers during one snapshot of time.

Take this to the most extreme and step beyond humanity. What is high quality for humanity, i.e. a controlled ecology, mild and temperate weather, access to clean water, is wholly low quality for certain denizens of our animal kingdoms. There is a specific reason why certain animals gravitate towards particular climates and environments. Flies to manure. Gators to swamps. Pigs to mud. Etc. If each of those species was able to give a rankings to their respective ideal natural environments, they would surely give five stars, whereas the average human would struggle to give 1, maybe 1.5 if they were being generous.

As the one thing that both Taoism and science can agree on, one can not separate the organism from its environment. One loses its meaning without the other. The reasons as to this are not necessarily shared between Taoism and science, but for those of us who have thought about quality, it should be clear. Quality is the thread that ties each organism to the environment and perspective of its liking. This thread is wholly dynamic through time as well as for each pair of organism : environment. It is thus a dynamic quality.

Thus, any attempt to measure this quality and quantify it definitively can serve as a proxy for a group of individual’s perspective on quality and is thus completely valid as such a tool. However, to extrapolate further from there to say those measures are thereby a proxy for capital Q “Quality” is a difficult leap of faith to make and would undoubtedly draw arguments and criticisms from those observers who didn’t share those very same perspectives.

From: Adrie Kintziger<mailto:***@gmail.com>
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 4:02 AM
To: ***@moqtalk.org<mailto:***@moqtalk.org>
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Your swinging loop for betterness is not a new idea nor a crazy idea.It is
correct that they are found in elektronics, aviation., and fuzzy logic
driven Washing machines. The entire idea however , sinks completely down
the drain of we try to aply it to philosophy. Words and terms as
trust, love,quality not only do not Carry a numeric value,even if given
one, or added one,the machine's pendulum Will not swing back and forth, as
you are claiming, but iT Will rotate the entire circel around,if we forget
To instruct everyone on earth to use the same value's for the scale, the
max range, and the numeric value's of the words!. even when we agree to
use a scripted protocol and the numeric value's of love, trust and quality
worldwide, and the pendulum swings and seeks for betternes in the results,
a matematician Can always take the result and add 1 to iT,and so Can
anyone else!, feel Free to try. in fact the whole idea is not a usefull
idea to apply on words.Its like trying to make a cake with only numeric
ingrediënts. they do not taste Well.We are not even talking about definable
or Indefinable. BUt stay on path in Search for betterness,you Will learn!
ADrie

Op vrijdag 8 september 2017 heeft WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> het volgende
geschreven:

> Hello Ardie, Andrew, Dan;
>
> Do not worry about anything you might have said Ardie; its all good just
> focus on your health and recovery.
>
> Pirsig talked about the static patterns of quality, and that you need
> dynamic quality in order to change these patterns.
> Deming and Shewhart, have a simple mathematical model that measures the
> current, static patterns. Both of these men
> call "static patterns", a SYSTEM that is under statistical process control
> and there is a precise numerical value that is given to them.
>
> A minimum of twenty statistical samples are taken, from this we can
> calculate, the average, standard deviation and 3 levels further out to 3
> sigma.
>
> Anything beyond sigma 3 they call "special variation", and it is
> assignable to something, this is Pirsigs "dynamic quality".
> Pirsigs "dynamic quality" is always positive however, with Shewharts chart
> it can go either way with positive or negative quality.
>
> This tool is not difficult to create, and you can make one in about 5
> minutes, to measure quality or levels of safety on a spread sheet.
> You can then embark on a path that Pirsig describes as "betterness", or as
> Deming describes as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous
> Improvement. Most manufacturers of cars, and planes, and some manufactures
> of trains use control charts.
>
>
>
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 9:35:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello all,
>
> I am still here! I’ve been reading the healthy debate, it’s great to
> converse with others that think so deeply about Quality.
>
> Personally, my opinion is that you are both right! Quality is both
> unknowable and infinitely variable as well as the one true reality.
>
> It is infinitely variable and unknowable because it exists between an
> observer and observed and it varies for every pair of observer/observed in
> the universe. What one knows as high quality another may know as low, etc.
> In this sense, what one observes as reality would not be congruent with
> what another observes.
>
> That said, to Wes’s point, just because what one observes is uniquely
> distinct to you and only you, does not make it any less real or true. The
> relationship between you and everything you observe is very real. To know
> that what you see as quality in a tree, a rock, a pizza slice is not
> actually inherent in that thing, doesn’t make it ephemeral, it makes it
> more personal.
>
> Now, the fact that observations and quality can be shared amongst multiple
> observers does not necessarily make the quality in the observed more real,
> but it does improve the quality *between the observers*. It creates
> stronger relationships between observers when they have a sense of shared
> experience or point of view.
>
> Not sure if this makes sense but I found both sides making equally valid
> and true points. The beauty of Quality is that these seemingly incompatible
> viewpoints are actually nicely consistent.
>
> And wes, sure! Trying to think which pieces may be most interesting for
> you all. Two I hope you enjoy as my initial reflections on quality and the
> third I would be very interested in feedback on the framework I have been
> meditating on for a while.
>
> The Secret of In-N-Out’s Success
>
> A Lesson from Jiro
>
> The Selective Dissonance of Hateful Gods
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Thursday, September 7, 2017 12:45 AM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew ;
>
> I hope you are still here and would like to read some of your essays on
> quality.
>
>
> From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hell Dan and All;
>
> I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William
> Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming
> were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at
> Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of
> continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used
> their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>
> Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM,
> in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically
> dominated human beings.
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
> that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
> future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
> mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
> and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
> look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.
>
> I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
> New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
> the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
> near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
> out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
> wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
> it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
> her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
> on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
> sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
> along the way, but hey.
>
> I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
> Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
> choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
> us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
> evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
> order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
> shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
> earning it. Until it is too late.
>
> One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
> tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
> petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
> torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
> horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
> Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
> me some living. So there's that...
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > Hello Dan;
> >
> > What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The
> sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing
> vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also
> measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good)
> as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around;
> the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the
> automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between
> them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is
> that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do
> not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of
> Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who
> knows.
> >
> > I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the
> space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not
> know.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Wes, all,
> >
> > I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> > is no true reality? From Lila:
> >
> > "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> > reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> > Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> > they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
> >
> > "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> > called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> > Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> > definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> > independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
> >
> > "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> > there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> > things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know able, or
> > there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> > of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> > definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> > a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
> >
> > A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> > quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> > define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
> >
> > "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> > from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> > Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> > distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> > thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> > value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> > the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> > here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> > the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> > subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
> >
> > " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> > to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> > subject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> > on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> > the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> > things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> > constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> > ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> > truths to exist.
> >
> > "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
> >
> > "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> > things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> > this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> > something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> > realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> > with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> > simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> > of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> > more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> > our history and current patterns of values."
> >
> > Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> > specify why.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> Hello Dan;
> >>
> >> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he
> is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the
> reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates
> that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely
> different.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>
> >> Wes, all,
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
> >> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
> >> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
> >> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
> >> is true for one person isn't for another.
> >>
> >> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
> >> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
> >> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
> >> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
> >> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
> >>
> >> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
> >> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
> >> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
> >> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
> >> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
> >> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
> >> family. Not doing philosophy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
> >>>
> >>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our
> biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right,
> you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its
> not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile
> that are the only things we can measure.
> >>>
> >>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not
> subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
> >>>
> >>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life,
> because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you
> interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration
> camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however
> it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side,
> because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not
> rely on comfort level or money.
> >>>
> >>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at
> that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul
> Hilberg.
> >>>
> >>
> >> http://www.danglover.com
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[X Acto]

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hell Dan and All;
>
> I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>
> Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically dominated human beings.
>
Ron interjects:
Hello Wes,Dan, All,
I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes defined the term "SYSTEM".
In system theory it is defined as
an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the system or the operations may result in system failure.
With the goal being isotelesis.
the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.




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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
Thanks for the response Ardie;

Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they still work for quality.

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming. This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries. He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate, maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system. As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes, and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%, specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up with some ideas and we implement those changes.

Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."

Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM, because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full description in Chapter 8.
Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician, sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an intelligent move?

Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;

"But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce another factory."

"If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic patterns of thought are left intact,
then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert Pirsig

In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.

From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Sent from my iPhone

> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hell Dan and All;
>
> I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>
> Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically dominated human beings.
>
Ron interjects:
Hello Wes,Dan, All,
I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes defined the term "SYSTEM".
In system theory it is defined as
an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the system or the operations may result in system failure.
With the goal being isotelesis.
the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.




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[Adrie Kintziger]

Just an aside not related to this thread is that Tuuka posted on the Lila
Squad list, that Bodvar Skutvik has passed away.(yesterday)

May he rest in peace.

Adrie

2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>
> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> still work for quality.
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> those attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> those ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>
> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>
> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> description in Chapter 8.
> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> intelligent move?
>
> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>
> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> another factory."
>
> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
> patterns of thought are left intact,
> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> Pirsig
>
> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>
> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hell Dan and All;
> >
> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> >
> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> Biologically dominated human beings.
> >
> Ron interjects:
> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> defined the term "SYSTEM".
> In system theory it is defined as
> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> system or the operations may result in system failure.
> With the goal being isotelesis.
> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>



--
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[Adrie Kintziger]

posted yesterday

2017-09-11 10:41 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:

> Just an aside not related to this thread is that Tuuka posted on the Lila
> Squad list, that Bodvar Skutvik has passed away.(yesterday)
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Adrie
>
> 2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>
>>
>> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
>> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
>> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>>
>> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
>> still work for quality.
>>
>> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
>> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
>> This is a simple story.
>>
>> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for
>> a company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
>> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
>> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
>> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
>> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>>
>> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
>> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
>> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
>> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
>> or fractures that occur every month.
>>
>> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
>> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
>> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
>> might.
>>
>> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
>> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
>> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
>> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>>
>> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
>> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
>> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>>
>> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a
>> state of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that
>> will not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would
>> say there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
>> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
>> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>>
>> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
>> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
>> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>>
>> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
>> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
>> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
>> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
>> those attributes.
>>
>> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
>> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
>> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
>> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
>> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
>> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
>> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
>> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
>> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>>
>>
>> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
>> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
>> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
>> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
>> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
>> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
>> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
>> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
>> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>>
>> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
>> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
>> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
>> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
>> specific to ankle injuries.
>>
>> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
>> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
>> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
>> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
>> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
>> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
>> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
>> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
>> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
>> those ankle sprain injuries."
>>
>> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
>> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
>> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
>> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
>> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
>> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
>> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
>> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
>> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>>
>> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
>> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
>> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>>
>> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
>> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
>> description in Chapter 8.
>> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
>> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
>> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
>> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
>> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
>> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
>> intelligent move?
>>
>> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>>
>> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
>> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
>> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
>> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
>> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
>> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
>> another factory."
>>
>> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same
>> systematic patterns of thought are left intact,
>> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
>> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
>> Pirsig
>>
>> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
>> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
>> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
>> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
>> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
>> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
>> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
>> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>>
>> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
>> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
>> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>> >
>> > Hell Dan and All;
>> >
>> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
>> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
>> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
>> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
>> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
>> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>> >
>> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
>> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
>> Biologically dominated human beings.
>> >
>> Ron interjects:
>> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
>> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
>> defined the term "SYSTEM".
>> In system theory it is defined as
>> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by
>> its boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
>> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the
>> system is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to
>> accomplish a common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the
>> maintenance of the system or the operations may result in system failure.
>> With the goal being isotelesis.
>> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
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[Dan Glover]

Thanks for letting us know about Bodvar, Adrie. Sad.

On Mon, Sep 11, 2017 at 3:41 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just an aside not related to this thread is that Tuuka posted on the Lila
> Squad list, that Bodvar Skutvik has passed away.(yesterday)
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Adrie
>

http://www.danglover.com
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[Horse]

Yeah, that is a shame. I liked Bo, often didn't agree with him but I
liked him.
RIP Bo :(

On 11/09/2017 09:41, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
> Just an aside not related to this thread is that Tuuka posted on the Lila
> Squad list, that Bodvar Skutvik has passed away.(yesterday)
>
> May he rest in peace.
>
> Adrie
>
> 2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>
>> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
>> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
>> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>>
>> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
>> still work for quality.
>>
>> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
>> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
>> This is a simple story.
>>
>> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
>> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
>> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
>> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
>> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
>> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>>
>> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
>> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
>> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
>> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
>> or fractures that occur every month.
>>
>> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
>> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
>> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
>> might.
>>
>> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
>> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
>> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
>> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>>
>> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
>> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
>> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>>
>> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
>> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
>> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
>> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
>> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
>> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>>
>> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
>> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
>> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>>
>> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
>> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
>> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
>> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
>> those attributes.
>>
>> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
>> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
>> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
>> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
>> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
>> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
>> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
>> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
>> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>>
>>
>> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
>> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
>> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
>> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
>> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
>> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
>> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
>> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
>> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>>
>> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
>> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
>> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
>> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
>> specific to ankle injuries.
>>
>> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
>> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
>> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
>> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
>> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
>> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
>> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
>> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
>> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
>> those ankle sprain injuries."
>>
>> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
>> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
>> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
>> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
>> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
>> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
>> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
>> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
>> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>>
>> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
>> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
>> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>>
>> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
>> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
>> description in Chapter 8.
>> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
>> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
>> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
>> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
>> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
>> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
>> intelligent move?
>>
>> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>>
>> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
>> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
>> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
>> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
>> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
>> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
>> another factory."
>>
>> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
>> patterns of thought are left intact,
>> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
>> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
>> Pirsig
>>
>> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
>> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
>> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
>> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
>> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
>> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
>> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
>> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>>
>> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>>> On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
>>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>>> Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>>
>>> Hell Dan and All;
>>>
>>> I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
>> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
>> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
>> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
>> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
>> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>>> Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
>> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
>> Biologically dominated human beings.
>> Ron interjects:
>> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
>> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
>> defined the term "SYSTEM".
>> In system theory it is defined as
>> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
>> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
>> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
>> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
>> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
>> system or the operations may result in system failure.
>> With the goal being isotelesis.
>> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>
>

--


"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."
— Bob Moorehead

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[Adrie Kintziger]

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can i safely pass the stream here?",
...Yeah you really can the statician says, the average depth here is around
knee depth only.So the dude starts walking to the other side,only to drown
in a part of the river that has some greater depth.Statistically very
normal of course.

What i can see in your model , Wes , is that you create story's like this to
make something clear by adding complexity to the model.If i compare my
example with yours, the case is the same, but you will introduce say like
the speed of the stream, the position of the rocks in the riverbed,the
rotation of the earth,the lenght of the guy, can he swim or not?;;;;;etc,
but!, models like this
wil tell us nothing, at all,about philosophy.They fail to predict
reality.Or morality.



2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>
> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> still work for quality.
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> those attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> those ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>
> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>
> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> description in Chapter 8.
> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> intelligent move?
>
> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>
> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> another factory."
>
> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
> patterns of thought are left intact,
> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> Pirsig
>
> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>
> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hell Dan and All;
> >
> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> >
> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> Biologically dominated human beings.
> >
> Ron interjects:
> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> defined the term "SYSTEM".
> In system theory it is defined as
> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> system or the operations may result in system failure.
> With the goal being isotelesis.
> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>



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[Andrew Chu]

Hi Wes and Adrie,

The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system” or “environment”.

In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.

For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I would argue not really because there was no true thought around the process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second factory worked.

So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to define/prove.

As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it static or dynamic.

The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as much an edifice as the original building itself.

From: Adrie Kintziger
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can i safely pass the stream here?",
...Yeah you really can the statician says, the average depth here is around
knee depth only.So the dude starts walking to the other side,only to drown
in a part of the river that has some greater depth.Statistically very
normal of course.

What i can see in your model , Wes , is that you create story's like this to
make something clear by adding complexity to the model.If i compare my
example with yours, the case is the same, but you will introduce say like
the speed of the stream, the position of the rocks in the riverbed,the
rotation of the earth,the lenght of the guy, can he swim or not?;;;;;etc,
but!, models like this
wil tell us nothing, at all,about philosophy.They fail to predict
reality.Or morality.



2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>
> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> still work for quality.
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> those attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> those ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>
> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>
> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> description in Chapter 8.
> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> intelligent move?
>
> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>
> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> another factory."
>
> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
> patterns of thought are left intact,
> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> Pirsig
>
> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>
> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hell Dan and All;
> >
> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> >
> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> Biologically dominated human beings.
> >
> Ron interjects:
> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> defined the term "SYSTEM".
> In system theory it is defined as
> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> system or the operations may result in system failure.
> With the goal being isotelesis.
> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>
>
>
>
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;

This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony, Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and listening to your employees.

They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you need it more than me.

No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented, it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.

During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"

ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe this incredible story.

The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes and Adrie,

The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system” or “environment”.

In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.

For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I would argue not really because there was no true thought around the process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second factory worked.

So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to define/prove.

As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it static or dynamic.

The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as much an edifice as the original building itself.

From: Adrie Kintziger
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can i safely pass the stream here?",
...Yeah you really can the statician says, the average depth here is around
knee depth only.So the dude starts walking to the other side,only to drown
in a part of the river that has some greater depth.Statistically very
normal of course.

What i can see in your model , Wes , is that you create story's like this to
make something clear by adding complexity to the model.If i compare my
example with yours, the case is the same, but you will introduce say like
the speed of the stream, the position of the rocks in the riverbed,the
rotation of the earth,the lenght of the guy, can he swim or not?;;;;;etc,
but!, models like this
wil tell us nothing, at all,about philosophy.They fail to predict
reality.Or morality.



2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>
> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> still work for quality.
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> those attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> those ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>
> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>
> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> description in Chapter 8.
> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> intelligent move?
>
> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>
> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> another factory."
>
> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
> patterns of thought are left intact,
> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> Pirsig
>
> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>
> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hell Dan and All;
> >
> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> >
> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> Biologically dominated human beings.
> >
> Ron interjects:
> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> defined the term "SYSTEM".
> In system theory it is defined as
> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> system or the operations may result in system failure.
> With the goal being isotelesis.
> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[Andrew Chu]

Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact, his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.

I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for static quality.

We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.

The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s, became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a status symbol.

Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a), mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.

So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the ever-changing environment.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;

This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony, Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and listening to your employees.

They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you need it more than me.

No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented, it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.

During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"

ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe this incredible story.

The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes and Adrie,

The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system” or “environment”.

In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.

For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I would argue not really because there was no true thought around the process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second factory worked.

So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to define/prove.

As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it static or dynamic.

The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as much an edifice as the original building itself.

From: Adrie Kintziger
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can i safely pass the stream here?",
...Yeah you really can the statician says, the average depth here is around
knee depth only.So the dude starts walking to the other side,only to drown
in a part of the river that has some greater depth.Statistically very
normal of course.

What i can see in your model , Wes , is that you create story's like this to
make something clear by adding complexity to the model.If i compare my
example with yours, the case is the same, but you will introduce say like
the speed of the stream, the position of the rocks in the riverbed,the
rotation of the earth,the lenght of the guy, can he swim or not?;;;;;etc,
but!, models like this
wil tell us nothing, at all,about philosophy.They fail to predict
reality.Or morality.



2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>
> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> still work for quality.
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> those attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> those ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>
> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>
> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> description in Chapter 8.
> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> intelligent move?
>
> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>
> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> another factory."
>
> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
> patterns of thought are left intact,
> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> Pirsig
>
> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>
> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hell Dan and All;
> >
> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> >
> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> Biologically dominated human beings.
> >
> Ron interjects:
> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> defined the term "SYSTEM".
> In system theory it is defined as
> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> system or the operations may result in system failure.
> With the goal being isotelesis.
> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew;

I just finished watching Jiro, I will give your recommendation to watch this documentary a 6 stars out of a top rating of 5. The documentary was nothing short of awesome. I have lots of ideas, from watching this.

Thank you Andrew

From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:29:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact, his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.

I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for static quality.

We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.

The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s, became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a status symbol.

Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a), mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.

So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the ever-changing environment.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;

This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony, Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and listening to your employees.

They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you need it more than me.

No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented, it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.

During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"

ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe this incredible story.

The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes and Adrie,

The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system” or “environment”.

In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.

For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I would argue not really because there was no true thought around the process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second factory worked.

So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to define/prove.

As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it static or dynamic.

The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as much an edifice as the original building itself.

From: Adrie Kintziger
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can i safely pass the stream here?",
...Yeah you really can the statician says, the average depth here is around
knee depth only.So the dude starts walking to the other side,only to drown
in a part of the river that has some greater depth.Statistically very
normal of course.

What i can see in your model , Wes , is that you create story's like this to
make something clear by adding complexity to the model.If i compare my
example with yours, the case is the same, but you will introduce say like
the speed of the stream, the position of the rocks in the riverbed,the
rotation of the earth,the lenght of the guy, can he swim or not?;;;;;etc,
but!, models like this
wil tell us nothing, at all,about philosophy.They fail to predict
reality.Or morality.



2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>
> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> still work for quality.
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> those attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> those ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>
> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>
> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> description in Chapter 8.
> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> intelligent move?
>
> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>
> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> another factory."
>
> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
> patterns of thought are left intact,
> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> Pirsig
>
> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>
> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hell Dan and All;
> >
> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> >
> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> Biologically dominated human beings.
> >
> Ron interjects:
> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> defined the term "SYSTEM".
> In system theory it is defined as
> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> system or the operations may result in system failure.
> With the goal being isotelesis.
> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>
>
>
>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[Andrew Chu]

Fantastic! Very glad to hear and curious as to your thoughts and reflections when they are done percolating.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:55 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew;

I just finished watching Jiro, I will give your recommendation to watch this documentary a 6 stars out of a top rating of 5. The documentary was nothing short of awesome. I have lots of ideas, from watching this.

Thank you Andrew

From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:29:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact, his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.

I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for static quality.

We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.

The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s, became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a status symbol.

Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a), mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.

So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the ever-changing environment.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;

This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony, Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and listening to your employees.

They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you need it more than me.

No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented, it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.

During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"

ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe this incredible story.

The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes and Adrie,

The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system” or “environment”.

In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.

For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I would argue not really because there was no true thought around the process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second factory worked.

So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to define/prove.

As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it static or dynamic.

The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as much an edifice as the original building itself.

From: Adrie Kintziger
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can

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[WES STEWART]

Hello Andrew and All about "Jiro dreams of Sushi"

I thought it was a great documentary for anyone interested in quality. Prime minister of Japan Shinzo Abe and former US president Barack Obama dined together at Jiro's 10 seat restaurant that is by a subway station.

Jiro has the same basic tenets that were preached strongly by Deming;

a) He believes in continuous improvement, perfection is impossible to obtain, but constantly move in that direction
b) Does not focus on money but focuses on quality
c) Keep a good supplier and pay them a healthy rate, so they can remain in business

Jiro's suppliers of fish and seafood all seem to have a high degree of integrity; they are not there just to purchase and sell as much as they can. Jiro purchases only from those that have methods to determine how good the tuna or seafood will be. His tuna supplier is able to tell how good the taste will be, just by feeling the texture of the meat. His tuna supplier states as a matter of fact for every 10 tuna there is 1 noteworthy one. His other suppliers are not in it for the money but to provide a quality service and be known for that. Some of them speak openly lets purchase some seafood that is worthy of Jiro's skills.

Jiro also uses the scientific method. Through experimentation and testing he has brought a high degree of quality to his sushi; his methods are not the same methods that he learned 20 years ago. Jiro's level of taste is highly refined/evolved and that is his measuring tool. One Japanese food critic, had stated Jiro is extremely critical of his own work, we see the scientific method once again. Richard Feynman the physicist and Nobel laureate, told his students in one of his lectures, "try to prove yourself wrong as quickly as possible, that way progress can be made." I think the truth of this statement is what frustrated a very young Robert Pirsig, the hypothesis, followed by another hypothesis, followed yet by another hypothesis. Pirsig later writes the scientific method is not perfect, but it is the best thing that we have.

Paulo Freire a philosopher in education tells us that "knowledge emerges (whether on sushi or anything else) only through invention and re-invention, through the restless, impatient, continuing hopeful inquiry human beings pursue in the world, with the world and with each other."

Concerning the article on Japan and innovation I agree with you on that, Andrew. I think all societies create conforming individuals, however Japanese society more so. If you do not conform to the ideal, you may suffer depression and regard your own life as worthless. How does a person come up with anything original (innovation) if you were taught here listen to this and repeat it back and your success at repeating it back is what we will rate you as a human being. A society full of automatons, is not an innovative society, you need dreamers like Jiro, dreaming of new innovations in how he prepares the rice, massages the octopus, or any new hypothesis he comes up with that he feels will bring improvement.

Towards the end of the documentary I found it interesting that others describe Jiro as a non-conformist, a rebel. He is invited to a school to speak to the students and has not decided to tell them whether to fit perfectly in to the school system or whether he will encourage them to be rebels.
He visits his parents graves with his son and there is a flower vase with wilted flowers in it. His son asks him, "Perhaps we should have brought fresh flowers", he replies "Just dump the water in, its only a ritual and my parents never liked me, anyways." You can see he is not only critical of the old dogma of society, but the old dogma on how sushi should be prepared. The old dogma on how sushi should be prepared , was what he prepared yesterday.







From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:58:47 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Fantastic! Very glad to hear and curious as to your thoughts and reflections when they are done percolating.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:55 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew;

I just finished watching Jiro, I will give your recommendation to watch this documentary a 6 stars out of a top rating of 5. The documentary was nothing short of awesome. I have lots of ideas, from watching this.

Thank you Andrew

From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:29:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact, his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.

I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for static quality.

We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.

The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s, became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a status symbol.

Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a), mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.

So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the ever-changing environment.

From: WES STEWART
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
To: moq discuss
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality


Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;

This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony, Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and listening to your employees.

They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you need it more than me.

No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented, it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.

During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"

ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe this incredible story.

The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.



From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes and Adrie,

The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system” or “environment”.

In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.

For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I would argue not really because there was no true thought around the process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second factory worked.

So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to define/prove.

As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it static or dynamic.

The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as much an edifice as the original building itself.

From: Adrie Kintziger
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can

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[Adrie Kintziger]

Hi all,
I had really no idea about this Jiro person.At first i tought that when you
offered the tubelinks that it would lead me to a sort of game or so.

If you like this quality/craftmanships endevours....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUPyuz_ink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dibIlrai8fU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk4cwtQJmwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xNZx_kX0o8

You tube will offer the rest of the suggestingpack;.
I would not call it quality however, but craftmanship hunting for
conceptual quality.Like Jiro's sushi, as it 's presenting and preparing
requires the hand of the master,.....but the fish itself delivers the taste
and meat.The hand of the
karate-kid-sushi master is only the serving hand. One would almost think
that it bares resemblances wit the tea ceremony.

Adrie


2017-09-14 4:13 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Andrew and All about "Jiro dreams of Sushi"
>
> I thought it was a great documentary for anyone interested in quality.
> Prime minister of Japan Shinzo Abe and former US president Barack Obama
> dined together at Jiro's 10 seat restaurant that is by a subway station.
>
> Jiro has the same basic tenets that were preached strongly by Deming;
>
> a) He believes in continuous improvement, perfection is impossible to
> obtain, but constantly move in that direction
> b) Does not focus on money but focuses on quality
> c) Keep a good supplier and pay them a healthy rate, so they can remain in
> business
>
> Jiro's suppliers of fish and seafood all seem to have a high degree of
> integrity; they are not there just to purchase and sell as much as they
> can. Jiro purchases only from those that have methods to determine how good
> the tuna or seafood will be. His tuna supplier is able to tell how good the
> taste will be, just by feeling the texture of the meat. His tuna supplier
> states as a matter of fact for every 10 tuna there is 1 noteworthy one. His
> other suppliers are not in it for the money but to provide a quality
> service and be known for that. Some of them speak openly lets purchase some
> seafood that is worthy of Jiro's skills.
>
> Jiro also uses the scientific method. Through experimentation and testing
> he has brought a high degree of quality to his sushi; his methods are not
> the same methods that he learned 20 years ago. Jiro's level of taste is
> highly refined/evolved and that is his measuring tool. One Japanese food
> critic, had stated Jiro is extremely critical of his own work, we see the
> scientific method once again. Richard Feynman the physicist and Nobel
> laureate, told his students in one of his lectures, "try to prove yourself
> wrong as quickly as possible, that way progress can be made." I think the
> truth of this statement is what frustrated a very young Robert Pirsig, the
> hypothesis, followed by another hypothesis, followed yet by another
> hypothesis. Pirsig later writes the scientific method is not perfect, but
> it is the best thing that we have.
>
> Paulo Freire a philosopher in education tells us that "knowledge emerges
> (whether on sushi or anything else) only through invention and
> re-invention, through the restless, impatient, continuing hopeful inquiry
> human beings pursue in the world, with the world and with each other."
>
> Concerning the article on Japan and innovation I agree with you on that,
> Andrew. I think all societies create conforming individuals, however
> Japanese society more so. If you do not conform to the ideal, you may
> suffer depression and regard your own life as worthless. How does a person
> come up with anything original (innovation) if you were taught here listen
> to this and repeat it back and your success at repeating it back is what we
> will rate you as a human being. A society full of automatons, is not an
> innovative society, you need dreamers like Jiro, dreaming of new
> innovations in how he prepares the rice, massages the octopus, or any new
> hypothesis he comes up with that he feels will bring improvement.
>
> Towards the end of the documentary I found it interesting that others
> describe Jiro as a non-conformist, a rebel. He is invited to a school to
> speak to the students and has not decided to tell them whether to fit
> perfectly in to the school system or whether he will encourage them to be
> rebels.
> He visits his parents graves with his son and there is a flower vase with
> wilted flowers in it. His son asks him, "Perhaps we should have brought
> fresh flowers", he replies "Just dump the water in, its only a ritual and
> my parents never liked me, anyways." You can see he is not only critical of
> the old dogma of society, but the old dogma on how sushi should be
> prepared. The old dogma on how sushi should be prepared , was what he
> prepared yesterday.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:58:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Fantastic! Very glad to hear and curious as to your thoughts and
> reflections when they are done percolating.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:55 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
>
> Hello Andrew;
>
> I just finished watching Jiro, I will give your recommendation to watch
> this documentary a 6 stars out of a top rating of 5. The documentary was
> nothing short of awesome. I have lots of ideas, from watching this.
>
> Thank you Andrew
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:29:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact,
> his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much
> in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of
> technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.
>
> I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a
> theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely
> have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements
> start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At
> the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards
> dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for
> static quality.
>
> We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in
> quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue
> the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to
> create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use
> knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality
> has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.
>
> The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and
> in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their
> receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has
> had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their
> adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the
> well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s,
> became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a
> status symbol.
>
> Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because
> the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.
> com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-
> special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-
> 324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a),
> mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior
> thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as
> to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful
> deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.
>
> So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in
> some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at
> least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken
> at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger
> movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the
> ever-changing environment.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
>
> Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;
>
> This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas
> MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned
> Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan
> giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He
> had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony,
> Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance
> of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and
> listening to your employees.
>
> They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for
> quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into
> Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming
> money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you
> need it more than me.
>
> No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as
> Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented,
> it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began
> rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they
> flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a
> household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.
>
> During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan
> he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for
> the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived
> a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a
> university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors
> was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality
> calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"
>
> ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how
> Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when
> they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the
> news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand
> children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe
> this incredible story.
>
> The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends
> every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.
>
>
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Wes and Adrie,
>
> The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an
> example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key
> quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could
> be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more
> accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system”
> or “environment”.
>
> In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before
> the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator
> getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His
> thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the
> dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they
> are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to
> dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.
>
> For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to
> another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the
> workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If
> it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I
> would argue not really because there was no true thought around the
> process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem
> solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It
> could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second
> factory worked.
>
> So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show
> improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be
> easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to
> define/prove.
>
> As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest
> opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and
> over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines
> which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it
> static or dynamic.
>
> The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is
> undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own
> experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit
> and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by
> systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are
> then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting
> evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of
> statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new
> one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as
> much an edifice as the original building itself.
>
> From: Adrie Kintziger
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, all , Wes.
>
> I took a snip of your proposal/story
>
> "
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
> with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
> a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
> then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
> attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
> upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
> months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
> cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
> baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
> quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
> affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
> employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
> think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
> ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes......
>
> -------------------------------
>
> (Adrie)
> This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
> proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.
>
> I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
> first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
> I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
> an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.
>
> Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
> the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
> other side,he asks to the statician,"can
>
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http://mo

[WES STEWART]

Hello Ardie;

We try to define divine absolutes.
I believe that Jiro was pursuing the divine absolute of perfection, and that is quality.
Lila is a Sanskrit word, meaning, play, sport, spontaneity or drama, between the absolute reality (God,Creator) and within each of us.
This sums up the meeting at the marina bar with the sleazy woman, the play, sport, spontaneity and drama.
In the latter part of the novel Lila, she showed up with a shirt she bought for Pirsig that she placed on a doll; yet he had no clue. Pirsig was asking his reading audience for an answer.
She had quality in some areas that he did not, and we all do.

He tears his whole motorcycle apart, and his son recollects in front of an audience, "He forgot to check whether there was gas in the tank".

Because he is a creative writer, he is bringing the reader to have thoughts that play, sport, and bring spontaneity and drama.
He is bringing an insight to himself, and also to us us; never tear your engine apart if you ran out of gas.
We all have to learn as Jiro learns, to the same extent as Pirsig learns about Lila. He was willing to forsake his life and focus on the quality of life of another human being such as Lila.
How would you measure this act on the NYSE (New York Stock Exchange), or how many photons struck the screen? How good looking that person was?
I could measure it if I had the data, but the current narrative in our culture is that you cannot.

Pirsig's kind act is equally measurable; give me some data and I could give you some numbers. Why the sophists ever lost, we all know that.

Pirsig blames and I agree it was, human greed.
The corporate and political worlds do not want a science that is able to measure morality, yet we can do this through Pirsig's model and statistical data.

How many lives were lost in the Iraq war, and who profited would be an easy equation to put a morality stamp on, by who profited and how many deaths.




From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 4:46:45 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi all,
I had really no idea about this Jiro person.At first i tought that when you
offered the tubelinks that it would lead me to a sort of game or so.

If you like this quality/craftmanships endevours....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUPyuz_ink
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dibIlrai8fU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk4cwtQJmwU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xNZx_kX0o8

You tube will offer the rest of the suggestingpack;.
I would not call it quality however, but craftmanship hunting for
conceptual quality.Like Jiro's sushi, as it 's presenting and preparing
requires the hand of the master,.....but the fish itself delivers the taste
and meat.The hand of the
karate-kid-sushi master is only the serving hand. One would almost think
that it bares resemblances wit the tea ceremony.

Adrie


2017-09-14 4:13 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Andrew and All about "Jiro dreams of Sushi"
>
> I thought it was a great documentary for anyone interested in quality.
> Prime minister of Japan Shinzo Abe and former US president Barack Obama
> dined together at Jiro's 10 seat restaurant that is by a subway station.
>
> Jiro has the same basic tenets that were preached strongly by Deming;
>
> a) He believes in continuous improvement, perfection is impossible to
> obtain, but constantly move in that direction
> b) Does not focus on money but focuses on quality
> c) Keep a good supplier and pay them a healthy rate, so they can remain in
> business
>
> Jiro's suppliers of fish and seafood all seem to have a high degree of
> integrity; they are not there just to purchase and sell as much as they
> can. Jiro purchases only from those that have methods to determine how good
> the tuna or seafood will be. His tuna supplier is able to tell how good the
> taste will be, just by feeling the texture of the meat. His tuna supplier
> states as a matter of fact for every 10 tuna there is 1 noteworthy one. His
> other suppliers are not in it for the money but to provide a quality
> service and be known for that. Some of them speak openly lets purchase some
> seafood that is worthy of Jiro's skills.
>
> Jiro also uses the scientific method. Through experimentation and testing
> he has brought a high degree of quality to his sushi; his methods are not
> the same methods that he learned 20 years ago. Jiro's level of taste is
> highly refined/evolved and that is his measuring tool. One Japanese food
> critic, had stated Jiro is extremely critical of his own work, we see the
> scientific method once again. Richard Feynman the physicist and Nobel
> laureate, told his students in one of his lectures, "try to prove yourself
> wrong as quickly as possible, that way progress can be made." I think the
> truth of this statement is what frustrated a very young Robert Pirsig, the
> hypothesis, followed by another hypothesis, followed yet by another
> hypothesis. Pirsig later writes the scientific method is not perfect, but
> it is the best thing that we have.
>
> Paulo Freire a philosopher in education tells us that "knowledge emerges
> (whether on sushi or anything else) only through invention and
> re-invention, through the restless, impatient, continuing hopeful inquiry
> human beings pursue in the world, with the world and with each other."
>
> Concerning the article on Japan and innovation I agree with you on that,
> Andrew. I think all societies create conforming individuals, however
> Japanese society more so. If you do not conform to the ideal, you may
> suffer depression and regard your own life as worthless. How does a person
> come up with anything original (innovation) if you were taught here listen
> to this and repeat it back and your success at repeating it back is what we
> will rate you as a human being. A society full of automatons, is not an
> innovative society, you need dreamers like Jiro, dreaming of new
> innovations in how he prepares the rice, massages the octopus, or any new
> hypothesis he comes up with that he feels will bring improvement.
>
> Towards the end of the documentary I found it interesting that others
> describe Jiro as a non-conformist, a rebel. He is invited to a school to
> speak to the students and has not decided to tell them whether to fit
> perfectly in to the school system or whether he will encourage them to be
> rebels.
> He visits his parents graves with his son and there is a flower vase with
> wilted flowers in it. His son asks him, "Perhaps we should have brought
> fresh flowers", he replies "Just dump the water in, its only a ritual and
> my parents never liked me, anyways." You can see he is not only critical of
> the old dogma of society, but the old dogma on how sushi should be
> prepared. The old dogma on how sushi should be prepared , was what he
> prepared yesterday.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:58:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Fantastic! Very glad to hear and curious as to your thoughts and
> reflections when they are done percolating.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:55 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
>
> Hello Andrew;
>
> I just finished watching Jiro, I will give your recommendation to watch
> this documentary a 6 stars out of a top rating of 5. The documentary was
> nothing short of awesome. I have lots of ideas, from watching this.
>
> Thank you Andrew
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:29:56 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact,
> his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much
> in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of
> technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.
>
> I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a
> theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely
> have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements
> start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At
> the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards
> dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for
> static quality.
>
> We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in
> quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue
> the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to
> create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use
> knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality
> has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.
>
> The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and
> in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their
> receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has
> had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their
> adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the
> well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s,
> became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a
> status symbol.
>
> Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because
> the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.
> com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-
> special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-
> 324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a),
> mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior
> thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as
> to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful
> deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.
>
> So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in
> some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at
> least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken
> at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger
> movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the
> ever-changing environment.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
>
> Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;
>
> This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas
> MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned
> Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan
> giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He
> had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony,
> Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance
> of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and
> listening to your employees.
>
> They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for
> quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into
> Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming
> money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you
> need it more than me.
>
> No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as
> Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented,
> it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began
> rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they
> flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a
> household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.
>
> During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan
> he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for
> the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived
> a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a
> university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors
> was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality
> calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"
>
> ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how
> Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when
> they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the
> news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand
> children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe
> this incredible story.
>
> The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends
> every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.
>
>
>
> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi Wes and Adrie,
>
> The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an
> example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key
> quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could
> be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more
> accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system”
> or “environment”.
>
> In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before
> the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator
> getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His
> thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the
> dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they
> are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to
> dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.
>
> For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to
> another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the
> workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If
> it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I
> would argue not really because there was no true thought around the
> process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem
> solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It
> could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second
> factory worked.
>
> So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show
> improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be
> easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to
> define/prove.
>
> As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest
> opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and
> over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines
> which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it
> static or dynamic.
>
> The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is
> undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own
> experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit
> and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by
> systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are
> then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting
> evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of
> statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new
> one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as
> much an edifice as the original building itself.
>
> From: Adrie Kintziger
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
> To: ***@moqtalk.org
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, all , Wes.
>
> I took a snip of your proposal/story
>
> "
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
> with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
> a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
> then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
> attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
> upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
> months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
> cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
> baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
> quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
> affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
> employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
> think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
> ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes......
>
> -------------------------------
>
> (Adrie)
> This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
> proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.
>
> I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
> first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
> I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
> an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.
>
> Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
> the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
> other side,he asks to the statician,"can
>
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[Dan Glover]

Wes, all,

I believe when asked Robert Pirsig said how the name Lila came from
the distinct odor of the lilac bush and not from the Sanskrit word. I
am fairly certain the MOQ does not subscribe to any notion of absolute
reality (God, Creator) for that would connote an objective reality we
all agree upon, the antithesis of the notion of Quality.

In ZMM, Pirsig writes:

"Two weeks after the vacation was over, one evening after work, I
removed the carburetor to see what was wrong but still couldn’t find
anything. To clean off the grease before replacing it, I turned the
stopcock on the tank for a little gas. Nothing came out. The tank was
out of gas. I couldn’t believe it. I can still hardly believe it."

So he did not tear the whole motorcycle apart. I wouldn't mind knowing
where you got the part about Chris saying so in front of an audience
if you could forward that.

Now, so far as the character Lila goes, 'she' was Robert Pirsig. So
was Rigel. And Phaedrus. And the boat. The notion behind the
development of the characters in the novel Lila had to do with
explicating the four levels of the MOQ: the boat, inorganic, Lila,
biological, Rigel, social, Phaedrus, intellectual.

That said, there is no divine absolute perfection in the MOQ. That
would presuppose the elimination of betterness. So to pursue such an
entity would appear to be only done in ignorance, which I am fairly
sure was not what Jiro or Pirsig were doing.

Thanks.


On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 12:53 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Hello Ardie;
>
> We try to define divine absolutes.
> I believe that Jiro was pursuing the divine absolute of perfection, and that is quality.
> Lila is a Sanskrit word, meaning, play, sport, spontaneity or drama, between the absolute reality (God,Creator) and within each of us.
> This sums up the meeting at the marina bar with the sleazy woman, the play, sport, spontaneity and drama.
> In the latter part of the novel Lila, she showed up with a shirt she bought for Pirsig that she placed on a doll; yet he had no clue. Pirsig was asking his reading audience for an answer.
> She had quality in some areas that he did not, and we all do.
>
> He tears his whole motorcycle apart, and his son recollects in front of an audience, "He forgot to check whether there was gas in the tank".
>
> Because he is a creative writer, he is bringing the reader to have thoughts that play, sport, and bring spontaneity and drama.
> He is bringing an insight to himself, and also to us us; never tear your engine apart if you ran out of gas.
> We all have to learn as Jiro learns, to the same extent as Pirsig learns about Lila. He was willing to forsake his life and focus on the quality of life of another human being such as Lila.
> How would you measure this act on the NYSE (New York Stock Exchange), or how many photons struck the screen? How good looking that person was?
> I could measure it if I had the data, but the current narrative in our culture is that you cannot.
>
> Pirsig's kind act is equally measurable; give me some data and I could give you some numbers. Why the sophists ever lost, we all know that.
>
> Pirsig blames and I agree it was, human greed.
> The corporate and political worlds do not want a science that is able to measure morality, yet we can do this through Pirsig's model and statistical data.
>
> How many lives were lost in the Iraq war, and who profited would be an easy equation to put a morality stamp on, by who profited and how many deaths.
>
>
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 4:46:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi all,
> I had really no idea about this Jiro person.At first i tought that when you
> offered the tubelinks that it would lead me to a sort of game or so.
>
> If you like this quality/craftmanships endevours....
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUPyuz_ink
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dibIlrai8fU
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk4cwtQJmwU
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xNZx_kX0o8
>
> You tube will offer the rest of the suggestingpack;.
> I would not call it quality however, but craftmanship hunting for
> conceptual quality.Like Jiro's sushi, as it 's presenting and preparing
> requires the hand of the master,.....but the fish itself delivers the taste
> and meat.The hand of the
> karate-kid-sushi master is only the serving hand. One would almost think
> that it bares resemblances wit the tea ceremony.
>
> Adrie
>
>
> 2017-09-14 4:13 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>
>>
>> Hello Andrew and All about "Jiro dreams of Sushi"
>>
>> I thought it was a great documentary for anyone interested in quality.
>> Prime minister of Japan Shinzo Abe and former US president Barack Obama
>> dined together at Jiro's 10 seat restaurant that is by a subway station.
>>
>> Jiro has the same basic tenets that were preached strongly by Deming;
>>
>> a) He believes in continuous improvement, perfection is impossible to
>> obtain, but constantly move in that direction
>> b) Does not focus on money but focuses on quality
>> c) Keep a good supplier and pay them a healthy rate, so they can remain in
>> business
>>
>> Jiro's suppliers of fish and seafood all seem to have a high degree of
>> integrity; they are not there just to purchase and sell as much as they
>> can. Jiro purchases only from those that have methods to determine how good
>> the tuna or seafood will be. His tuna supplier is able to tell how good the
>> taste will be, just by feeling the texture of the meat. His tuna supplier
>> states as a matter of fact for every 10 tuna there is 1 noteworthy one. His
>> other suppliers are not in it for the money but to provide a quality
>> service and be known for that. Some of them speak openly lets purchase some
>> seafood that is worthy of Jiro's skills.
>>
>> Jiro also uses the scientific method. Through experimentation and testing
>> he has brought a high degree of quality to his sushi; his methods are not
>> the same methods that he learned 20 years ago. Jiro's level of taste is
>> highly refined/evolved and that is his measuring tool. One Japanese food
>> critic, had stated Jiro is extremely critical of his own work, we see the
>> scientific method once again. Richard Feynman the physicist and Nobel
>> laureate, told his students in one of his lectures, "try to prove yourself
>> wrong as quickly as possible, that way progress can be made." I think the
>> truth of this statement is what frustrated a very young Robert Pirsig, the
>> hypothesis, followed by another hypothesis, followed yet by another
>> hypothesis. Pirsig later writes the scientific method is not perfect, but
>> it is the best thing that we have.
>>
>> Paulo Freire a philosopher in education tells us that "knowledge emerges
>> (whether on sushi or anything else) only through invention and
>> re-invention, through the restless, impatient, continuing hopeful inquiry
>> human beings pursue in the world, with the world and with each other."
>>
>> Concerning the article on Japan and innovation I agree with you on that,
>> Andrew. I think all societies create conforming individuals, however
>> Japanese society more so. If you do not conform to the ideal, you may
>> suffer depression and regard your own life as worthless. How does a person
>> come up with anything original (innovation) if you were taught here listen
>> to this and repeat it back and your success at repeating it back is what we
>> will rate you as a human being. A society full of automatons, is not an
>> innovative society, you need dreamers like Jiro, dreaming of new
>> innovations in how he prepares the rice, massages the octopus, or any new
>> hypothesis he comes up with that he feels will bring improvement.
>>
>> Towards the end of the documentary I found it interesting that others
>> describe Jiro as a non-conformist, a rebel. He is invited to a school to
>> speak to the students and has not decided to tell them whether to fit
>> perfectly in to the school system or whether he will encourage them to be
>> rebels.
>> He visits his parents graves with his son and there is a flower vase with
>> wilted flowers in it. His son asks him, "Perhaps we should have brought
>> fresh flowers", he replies "Just dump the water in, its only a ritual and
>> my parents never liked me, anyways." You can see he is not only critical of
>> the old dogma of society, but the old dogma on how sushi should be
>> prepared. The old dogma on how sushi should be prepared , was what he
>> prepared yesterday.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:58:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Fantastic! Very glad to hear and curious as to your thoughts and
>> reflections when they are done percolating.
>>
>> From: WES STEWART
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:55 PM
>> To: moq discuss
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>>
>> Hello Andrew;
>>
>> I just finished watching Jiro, I will give your recommendation to watch
>> this documentary a 6 stars out of a top rating of 5. The documentary was
>> nothing short of awesome. I have lots of ideas, from watching this.
>>
>> Thank you Andrew
>>
>> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:29:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact,
>> his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much
>> in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of
>> technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.
>>
>> I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a
>> theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely
>> have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements
>> start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At
>> the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards
>> dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for
>> static quality.
>>
>> We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in
>> quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue
>> the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to
>> create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use
>> knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality
>> has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.
>>
>> The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and
>> in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their
>> receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has
>> had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their
>> adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the
>> well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s,
>> became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a
>> status symbol.
>>
>> Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because
>> the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.
>> com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-
>> special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-
>> 324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a),
>> mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior
>> thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as
>> to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful
>> deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.
>>
>> So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in
>> some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at
>> least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken
>> at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger
>> movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the
>> ever-changing environment.
>>
>> From: WES STEWART
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
>> To: moq discuss
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>>
>> Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;
>>
>> This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas
>> MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned
>> Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan
>> giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He
>> had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony,
>> Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance
>> of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and
>> listening to your employees.
>>
>> They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for
>> quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into
>> Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming
>> money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you
>> need it more than me.
>>
>> No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as
>> Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented,
>> it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began
>> rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they
>> flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a
>> household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.
>>
>> During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan
>> he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for
>> the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived
>> a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a
>> university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors
>> was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality
>> calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"
>>
>> ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how
>> Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when
>> they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the
>> news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand
>> children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe
>> this incredible story.
>>
>> The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends
>> every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Wes and Adrie,
>>
>> The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an
>> example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key
>> quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could
>> be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more
>> accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system”
>> or “environment”.
>>
>> In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before
>> the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator
>> getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His
>> thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the
>> dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they
>> are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to
>> dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.
>>
>> For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to
>> another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the
>> workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If
>> it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I
>> would argue not really because there was no true thought around the
>> process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem
>> solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It
>> could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second
>> factory worked.
>>
>> So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show
>> improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be
>> easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to
>> define/prove.
>>
>> As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest
>> opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and
>> over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines
>> which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it
>> static or dynamic.
>>
>> The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is
>> undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own
>> experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit
>> and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by
>> systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are
>> then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting
>> evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of
>> statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new
>> one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as
>> much an edifice as the original building itself.
>>
>> From: Adrie Kintziger
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi, all , Wes.
>>
>> I took a snip of your proposal/story
>>
>> "
>>
>> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
>> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
>> This is a simple story.
>>
>> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
>> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
>> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
>> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
>> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
>> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>>
>> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
>> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
>> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
>> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
>> or fractures that occur every month.
>>
>> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
>> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
>> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
>> might.
>>
>> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
>> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
>> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
>> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>>
>> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
>> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
>> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>>
>> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
>> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
>> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
>> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
>> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
>> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>>
>> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
>> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
>> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>>
>> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
>> with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
>> a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
>> then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
>> attributes.
>>
>> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
>> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
>> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
>> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
>> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
>> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
>> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
>> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
>> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>>
>>
>> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
>> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
>> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
>> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
>> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
>> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
>> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
>> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
>> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>>
>> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
>> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
>> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
>> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
>> specific to ankle injuries.
>>
>> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
>> upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
>> months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
>> cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
>> baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
>> quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
>> affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
>> employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
>> think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
>> ankle sprain injuries."
>>
>> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
>> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
>> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
>> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
>> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
>> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
>> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
>> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
>> with some ideas and we implement those changes......
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> (Adrie)
>> This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
>> proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.
>>
>> I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
>> first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
>> I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
>> an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.
>>
>> Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
>> the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
>> other side,he asks to the statician,"can
>>
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[WES STEWART]

Thanks for the response Dan;

...and yes the Boat, and the Plastic Baby was Inorganic, Lila the Biological, Rigel- Social and Pirsig the Intellectual.

We can never be entirely certain of anything, however Lila is a a well known and important term in Hindu philosophy. Robert Pirsig attended Banaras Hindu University in India, to study Eastern philosophy and culture.

This is from Lila Chapter 1.

"There is Lila, this single private person who slept beside him now, who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams and will soon enough die and then there is someone else—call her lila—who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on. The sleeping Lila he had just met tonight. But the waking Lila, who never sleeps, had been watching him and he had been watching her for a long time. "

My interpretation of that, and it could be wrong, quality was reality itself, as he writes about his MOQ. It appears he also believes that the "quality that is our reality is an entity because he feels it had been watching him, and he had been watching her for a long time.

Immortal is an absolute, it is not subjective, it is a term that is well defined, however as human beings we are like how Plato describes. We are chained in a cave, with a bit of light entering, we are facing the walls and we see only shadows.

The entity Lila that Pirsig had been watching for a long time, was perfection. Lila the eternal, is a system that is undergoing continuous improvement, in all four areas of MOQ. Same as Jiro but only in one area; sushi..



From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 12:55:10 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

I believe when asked Robert Pirsig said how the name Lila came from
the distinct odor of the lilac bush and not from the Sanskrit word. I
am fairly certain the MOQ does not subscribe to any notion of absolute
reality (God, Creator) for that would connote an objective reality we
all agree upon, the antithesis of the notion of Quality.

In ZMM, Pirsig writes:

"Two weeks after the vacation was over, one evening after work, I
removed the carburetor to see what was wrong but still couldn’t find
anything. To clean off the grease before replacing it, I turned the
stopcock on the tank for a little gas. Nothing came out. The tank was
out of gas. I couldn’t believe it. I can still hardly believe it."

So he did not tear the whole motorcycle apart. I wouldn't mind knowing
where you got the part about Chris saying so in front of an audience
if you could forward that.

Now, so far as the character Lila goes, 'she' was Robert Pirsig. So
was Rigel. And Phaedrus. And the boat. The notion behind the
development of the characters in the novel Lila had to do with
explicating the four levels of the MOQ: the boat, inorganic, Lila,
biological, Rigel, social, Phaedrus, intellectual.

That said, there is no divine absolute perfection in the MOQ. That
would presuppose the elimination of betterness. So to pursue such an
entity would appear to be only done in ignorance, which I am fairly
sure was not what Jiro or Pirsig were doing.

Thanks.


On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 12:53 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
> Hello Ardie;
>
> We try to define divine absolutes.
> I believe that Jiro was pursuing the divine absolute of perfection, and that is quality.
> Lila is a Sanskrit word, meaning, play, sport, spontaneity or drama, between the absolute reality (God,Creator) and within each of us.
> This sums up the meeting at the marina bar with the sleazy woman, the play, sport, spontaneity and drama.
> In the latter part of the novel Lila, she showed up with a shirt she bought for Pirsig that she placed on a doll; yet he had no clue. Pirsig was asking his reading audience for an answer.
> She had quality in some areas that he did not, and we all do.
>
> He tears his whole motorcycle apart, and his son recollects in front of an audience, "He forgot to check whether there was gas in the tank".
>
> Because he is a creative writer, he is bringing the reader to have thoughts that play, sport, and bring spontaneity and drama.
> He is bringing an insight to himself, and also to us us; never tear your engine apart if you ran out of gas.
> We all have to learn as Jiro learns, to the same extent as Pirsig learns about Lila. He was willing to forsake his life and focus on the quality of life of another human being such as Lila.
> How would you measure this act on the NYSE (New York Stock Exchange), or how many photons struck the screen? How good looking that person was?
> I could measure it if I had the data, but the current narrative in our culture is that you cannot.
>
> Pirsig's kind act is equally measurable; give me some data and I could give you some numbers. Why the sophists ever lost, we all know that.
>
> Pirsig blames and I agree it was, human greed.
> The corporate and political worlds do not want a science that is able to measure morality, yet we can do this through Pirsig's model and statistical data.
>
> How many lives were lost in the Iraq war, and who profited would be an easy equation to put a morality stamp on, by who profited and how many deaths.
>
>
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 16, 2017 4:46:45 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi all,
> I had really no idea about this Jiro person.At first i tought that when you
> offered the tubelinks that it would lead me to a sort of game or so.
>
> If you like this quality/craftmanships endevours....
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QPUPyuz_ink
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dibIlrai8fU
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk4cwtQJmwU
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xNZx_kX0o8
>
> You tube will offer the rest of the suggestingpack;.
> I would not call it quality however, but craftmanship hunting for
> conceptual quality.Like Jiro's sushi, as it 's presenting and preparing
> requires the hand of the master,.....but the fish itself delivers the taste
> and meat.The hand of the
> karate-kid-sushi master is only the serving hand. One would almost think
> that it bares resemblances wit the tea ceremony.
>
> Adrie
>
>
> 2017-09-14 4:13 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>
>>
>> Hello Andrew and All about "Jiro dreams of Sushi"
>>
>> I thought it was a great documentary for anyone interested in quality.
>> Prime minister of Japan Shinzo Abe and former US president Barack Obama
>> dined together at Jiro's 10 seat restaurant that is by a subway station.
>>
>> Jiro has the same basic tenets that were preached strongly by Deming;
>>
>> a) He believes in continuous improvement, perfection is impossible to
>> obtain, but constantly move in that direction
>> b) Does not focus on money but focuses on quality
>> c) Keep a good supplier and pay them a healthy rate, so they can remain in
>> business
>>
>> Jiro's suppliers of fish and seafood all seem to have a high degree of
>> integrity; they are not there just to purchase and sell as much as they
>> can. Jiro purchases only from those that have methods to determine how good
>> the tuna or seafood will be. His tuna supplier is able to tell how good the
>> taste will be, just by feeling the texture of the meat. His tuna supplier
>> states as a matter of fact for every 10 tuna there is 1 noteworthy one. His
>> other suppliers are not in it for the money but to provide a quality
>> service and be known for that. Some of them speak openly lets purchase some
>> seafood that is worthy of Jiro's skills.
>>
>> Jiro also uses the scientific method. Through experimentation and testing
>> he has brought a high degree of quality to his sushi; his methods are not
>> the same methods that he learned 20 years ago. Jiro's level of taste is
>> highly refined/evolved and that is his measuring tool. One Japanese food
>> critic, had stated Jiro is extremely critical of his own work, we see the
>> scientific method once again. Richard Feynman the physicist and Nobel
>> laureate, told his students in one of his lectures, "try to prove yourself
>> wrong as quickly as possible, that way progress can be made." I think the
>> truth of this statement is what frustrated a very young Robert Pirsig, the
>> hypothesis, followed by another hypothesis, followed yet by another
>> hypothesis. Pirsig later writes the scientific method is not perfect, but
>> it is the best thing that we have.
>>
>> Paulo Freire a philosopher in education tells us that "knowledge emerges
>> (whether on sushi or anything else) only through invention and
>> re-invention, through the restless, impatient, continuing hopeful inquiry
>> human beings pursue in the world, with the world and with each other."
>>
>> Concerning the article on Japan and innovation I agree with you on that,
>> Andrew. I think all societies create conforming individuals, however
>> Japanese society more so. If you do not conform to the ideal, you may
>> suffer depression and regard your own life as worthless. How does a person
>> come up with anything original (innovation) if you were taught here listen
>> to this and repeat it back and your success at repeating it back is what we
>> will rate you as a human being. A society full of automatons, is not an
>> innovative society, you need dreamers like Jiro, dreaming of new
>> innovations in how he prepares the rice, massages the octopus, or any new
>> hypothesis he comes up with that he feels will bring improvement.
>>
>> Towards the end of the documentary I found it interesting that others
>> describe Jiro as a non-conformist, a rebel. He is invited to a school to
>> speak to the students and has not decided to tell them whether to fit
>> perfectly in to the school system or whether he will encourage them to be
>> rebels.
>> He visits his parents graves with his son and there is a flower vase with
>> wilted flowers in it. His son asks him, "Perhaps we should have brought
>> fresh flowers", he replies "Just dump the water in, its only a ritual and
>> my parents never liked me, anyways." You can see he is not only critical of
>> the old dogma of society, but the old dogma on how sushi should be
>> prepared. The old dogma on how sushi should be prepared , was what he
>> prepared yesterday.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 9:58:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Fantastic! Very glad to hear and curious as to your thoughts and
>> reflections when they are done percolating.
>>
>> From: WES STEWART
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:55 PM
>> To: moq discuss
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>>
>> Hello Andrew;
>>
>> I just finished watching Jiro, I will give your recommendation to watch
>> this documentary a 6 stars out of a top rating of 5. The documentary was
>> nothing short of awesome. I have lots of ideas, from watching this.
>>
>> Thank you Andrew
>>
>> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 1:29:56 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Wes, I don’t dispute the importance of Deming and his impact. In fact,
>> his merging of concepts of quality with industrial advancement is very much
>> in line with Pirsig’s reflections on his motorcycle and the nascent fear of
>> technology in our culture in that similar time frame of post war america.
>>
>> I suppose my thought is that when those metrics of quality reach a
>> theoretical peak, as they did in your prior example and as they largely
>> have in modern manufacturing today, what then? The observable improvements
>> start to flatline and what was once dynamic in nature becomes static. At
>> the same time what once gave meaning as an indicator of a trend towards
>> dynamic quality now becomes weighed down as simply being a placemarker for
>> static quality.
>>
>> We now can manufacture prolifically with little to no deviation in
>> quality. But then what do we choose to do with that power? We then devalue
>> the goods themselves, devalue their design and the thought put into them to
>> create endless landfills of plastic widgets, disposable goods, one-time-use
>> knick-knacks. What was undoubtedly a trend towards a higher dynamic quality
>> has now enabled some broader systemic issues of lower static quality.
>>
>> The point on japan is well taken. I respect the Japanese culture a lot and
>> in particular their attention to quality and thoughtfulness. But even their
>> receptiveness and empirically superior adoption of Deming’s teachings has
>> had side effects. For so many years, they saw positive results with their
>> adoption of quality controls that becoming a productive part of the
>> well-oiled machine, i.e. the Sony’s the Honda’s and the Mitsubishi’s,
>> became a key indicator of success for much of the culture, it became a
>> status symbol.
>>
>> Now, these very same giants find themselves struggling to innovate because
>> the system has become so engrained (https://www.washingtonpost.
>> com/world/asia_pacific/japanese-entrepreneurs-face-a-
>> special-challenge-the-wife-block/2016/06/21/1df476ca-
>> 324c-11e6-ab9d-1da2b0f24f93_story.html?utm_term=.f56192a1be5a),
>> mechanically, organizationally, socially. They must now reverse their prior
>> thinking and priorities to revalue innovation, to revalue deviation so as
>> to compete in a faster moving, more innovative world where thoughtful
>> deviation from the mean is what allows for new creations and discoveries.
>>
>> So what was once dynamic quality as indicated by six sigma, has now, in
>> some ways, enabled certain systems of lower static quality. Proving, at
>> least in my mind, that any quantitative measure for quality must be taken
>> at face value and continuously revisited in the context of the larger
>> movements and systems in place, in the context of our unique place in the
>> ever-changing environment.
>>
>> From: WES STEWART
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 2:54 PM
>> To: moq discuss
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>>
>> Hello Andrew and Ardie and All;
>>
>> This is not my theory its Deming's and it is widely accepted. Douglas
>> MacArthur head of the Allied command at the end of World War II , assigned
>> Deming to teach the Japanese about quality. Deming traveled all over Japan
>> giving 4 day seminars on how to build quality into products and service. He
>> had the attention of the leaders of Japanese industry such as Sony,
>> Mitsubishi, Toyota, and Honda. The message from Deming was the importance
>> of the control chart, honesty, fairness, respect, equality, teamwork and
>> listening to your employees.
>>
>> They religiously followed Deming and they named the annual award for
>> quality the Deming prize. From his seminars they translated them into
>> Japanese and created management manuals from them. They offered Deming
>> money for them he refused and told them take the money for yourselves, you
>> need it more than me.
>>
>> No country ever in the history of warfare had recovered so quickly as
>> Japan, economists were claiming their economic recovery was unprecedented,
>> it was out of control and going upward at an astronomical rate, it began
>> rapidly claiming markets, that others had a monopoly on. Every year they
>> flew Deming in for the awards presentation, Deming was revered and a
>> household name in Japan, yet no one in America had heard of him.
>>
>> During the forties and fifties while he gave his 4 day seminars in Japan
>> he was often handed gifts, he would walk the streets of Japan, looking for
>> the most destitute and give the gifts he was given to others. Deming lived
>> a modest life in Washington, a statistician and a night school teacher at a
>> university. It was in the 1980s when Japan bashing started and Ford motors
>> was losing 1 billion dollars every year, that ABC did a special on quality
>> calling it "If Japan can do it why can't we?"
>>
>> ABC News always heard the Japanese talking about the Deming prize, and how
>> Deming had taught them everything about quality. They were startled when
>> they discovered Deming was an American and living in Washington. When the
>> news team pulled up in front of Deming's modest house, with his grand
>> children's plastic wading pool on the front lawn, they could not believe
>> this incredible story.
>>
>> The ICAO (International Civil Aviation Authority) SMS manual recommends
>> every state, monitor incidents and accidents using a control chart.
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Andrew Chu" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 11:05:27 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi Wes and Adrie,
>>
>> The original story as laid out by Wes does actually strike me as an
>> example of quality or dynamic quality as it were. In my parlance, the key
>> quality is the relationship the narrator has to his work. This work could
>> be described as quality / safety manager or it could perhaps be more
>> accurately described as the narrator’s relationship to the factory “system”
>> or “environment”.
>>
>> In my mind, the high quality is most directly and clearly expressed before
>> the statistics show it. The high quality is a function of the narrator
>> getting lost in thought around the system and the problem at hand. His
>> thoughtful progression into the system and into the problem is where the
>> dynamic quality lies. The statistics provide a measure of this, but they
>> are symptomatic and indicative. In this case, the statistics are a clue to
>> dynamic quality but can never be deterministic in nature.
>>
>> For example, if someone took this solution at face value and went to
>> another factory next door and said “we should buy boots for all the
>> workers.” This may or may not result in a lower occurrence of injuries. If
>> it does result in lower injuries is that indicative of dynamic quality? I
>> would argue not really because there was no true thought around the
>> process, there was no deep relationship between the observer, the problem
>> solver and the observed, the problem/system/environment in that case. It
>> could very much be attributed to dumb luck that boots for the second
>> factory worked.
>>
>> So for me statistical improvements are a great tool, and can show
>> improvement in quality, but like the stock market, these signals can be
>> easily misinterpreted and causality can ultimately be difficult to
>> define/prove.
>>
>> As an example, quality companies in my opinion show the greatest
>> opportunity for stock price accretion but this is over the long term and
>> over the course of that period there may be sharp rises and sharp declines
>> which would be difficult to tie back to a particular level of quality be it
>> static or dynamic.
>>
>> The point on systems of thought being the key element to change is
>> undoubtedly true. I wholeheartedly agree. What I have found in my own
>> experience in dealing with my son’s school for example, is that implicit
>> and explicit racial segregation, for instance, is driven primarily by
>> systems of thought around value, quality and excellence. Statistics are
>> then drawn into the discussion as an after thought to provide supporting
>> evidence for the underlying systemic thought. You can change the basis of
>> statistical measure. You can tear down the school, factory or rebuild a new
>> one, but as long as the system thought is still in place, then this is as
>> much an edifice as the original building itself.
>>
>> From: Adrie Kintziger
>> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 12:37 PM
>> To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi, all , Wes.
>>
>> I took a snip of your proposal/story
>>
>> "
>>
>> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
>> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
>> This is a simple story.
>>
>> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
>> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
>> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
>> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
>> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
>> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>>
>> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
>> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
>> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
>> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
>> or fractures that occur every month.
>>
>> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
>> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
>> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
>> might.
>>
>> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
>> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
>> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
>> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>>
>> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
>> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
>> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>>
>> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
>> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
>> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
>> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
>> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
>> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>>
>> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
>> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
>> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>>
>> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
>> with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
>> a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
>> then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
>> attributes.
>>
>> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
>> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
>> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
>> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
>> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
>> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
>> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
>> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
>> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>>
>>
>> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
>> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
>> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
>> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
>> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
>> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
>> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
>> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
>> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>>
>> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
>> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
>> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
>> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
>> specific to ankle injuries.
>>
>> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
>> upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
>> months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
>> cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
>> baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
>> quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
>> affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
>> employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
>> think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
>> ankle sprain injuries."
>>
>> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
>> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
>> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
>> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
>> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
>> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
>> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
>> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
>> with some ideas and we implement those changes......
>>
>> -------------------------------
>>
>> (Adrie)
>> This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
>> proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.
>>
>> I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
>> first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
>> I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
>> an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.
>>
>> Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
>> the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
>> other side,he asks to the statician,"can
>>
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htt

[Dan Glover]

Wes, all,

Right. The immortal lila is biological. Phaedrus recalls seeing Lila
before only not Lila the single private person. What he remembers
seeing is the lila who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on.
Biological cells are billions of years old while Lila has only been
alive a short while. In comparison, yes, lila is immortal. I would
hesitate to call that perfection, however, as you yourself say the
eternal is continuously undergoing improvement. If lila is absolute
perfection, then no improvement is possible.

And yes, I believe Robert Pirsig said that he was aware of the li-la
in Hindu philosophy but that is not why he named the character Lila.

Thank you.

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:45 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Thanks for the response Dan;
>
> ...and yes the Boat, and the Plastic Baby was Inorganic, Lila the Biological, Rigel- Social and Pirsig the Intellectual.
>
> We can never be entirely certain of anything, however Lila is a a well known and important term in Hindu philosophy. Robert Pirsig attended Banaras Hindu University in India, to study Eastern philosophy and culture.
>
> This is from Lila Chapter 1.
>
> "There is Lila, this single private person who slept beside him now, who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams and will soon enough die and then there is someone else—call her lila—who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on. The sleeping Lila he had just met tonight. But the waking Lila, who never sleeps, had been watching him and he had been watching her for a long time. "
>
> My interpretation of that, and it could be wrong, quality was reality itself, as he writes about his MOQ. It appears he also believes that the "quality that is our reality is an entity because he feels it had been watching him, and he had been watching her for a long time.
>
> Immortal is an absolute, it is not subjective, it is a term that is well defined, however as human beings we are like how Plato describes. We are chained in a cave, with a bit of light entering, we are facing the walls and we see only shadows.
>
> The entity Lila that Pirsig had been watching for a long time, was perfection. Lila the eternal, is a system that is undergoing continuous improvement, in all four areas of MOQ. Same as Jiro but only in one area; sushi..
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 12:55:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I believe when asked Robert Pirsig said how the name Lila came from
> the distinct odor of the lilac bush and not from the Sanskrit word. I
> am fairly certain the MOQ does not subscribe to any notion of absolute
> reality (God, Creator) for that would connote an objective reality we
> all agree upon, the antithesis of the notion of Quality.
>
> In ZMM, Pirsig writes:
>
> "Two weeks after the vacation was over, one evening after work, I
> removed the carburetor to see what was wrong but still couldn’t find
> anything. To clean off the grease before replacing it, I turned the
> stopcock on the tank for a little gas. Nothing came out. The tank was
> out of gas. I couldn’t believe it. I can still hardly believe it."
>
> So he did not tear the whole motorcycle apart. I wouldn't mind knowing
> where you got the part about Chris saying so in front of an audience
> if you could forward that.
>
> Now, so far as the character Lila goes, 'she' was Robert Pirsig. So
> was Rigel. And Phaedrus. And the boat. The notion behind the
> development of the characters in the novel Lila had to do with
> explicating the four levels of the MOQ: the boat, inorganic, Lila,
> biological, Rigel, social, Phaedrus, intellectual.
>
> That said, there is no divine absolute perfection in the MOQ. That
> would presuppose the elimination of betterness. So to pursue such an
> entity would appear to be only done in ignorance, which I am fairly
> sure was not what Jiro or Pirsig were doing.
>
> Thanks.
>



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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan;

I agree with 95% of what you have written.
Perfection is a process that is undergoing continuous improvement.
It is not a static state or end game. Just because we believe we have achieved end game status does not give us reason can to fall asleep.

Perfection is a movement towards continuous improvement, its endless in all four areas of MOQ.
There are no breaks, its endless, its progression is towards infinity.



From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 1:08:09 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

Right. The immortal lila is biological. Phaedrus recalls seeing Lila
before only not Lila the single private person. What he remembers
seeing is the lila who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on.
Biological cells are billions of years old while Lila has only been
alive a short while. In comparison, yes, lila is immortal. I would
hesitate to call that perfection, however, as you yourself say the
eternal is continuously undergoing improvement. If lila is absolute
perfection, then no improvement is possible.

And yes, I believe Robert Pirsig said that he was aware of the li-la
in Hindu philosophy but that is not why he named the character Lila.

Thank you.

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:45 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Thanks for the response Dan;
>
> ...and yes the Boat, and the Plastic Baby was Inorganic, Lila the Biological, Rigel- Social and Pirsig the Intellectual.
>
> We can never be entirely certain of anything, however Lila is a a well known and important term in Hindu philosophy. Robert Pirsig attended Banaras Hindu University in India, to study Eastern philosophy and culture.
>
> This is from Lila Chapter 1.
>
> "There is Lila, this single private person who slept beside him now, who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams and will soon enough die and then there is someone else—call her lila—who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on. The sleeping Lila he had just met tonight. But the waking Lila, who never sleeps, had been watching him and he had been watching her for a long time. "
>
> My interpretation of that, and it could be wrong, quality was reality itself, as he writes about his MOQ. It appears he also believes that the "quality that is our reality is an entity because he feels it had been watching him, and he had been watching her for a long time.
>
> Immortal is an absolute, it is not subjective, it is a term that is well defined, however as human beings we are like how Plato describes. We are chained in a cave, with a bit of light entering, we are facing the walls and we see only shadows.
>
> The entity Lila that Pirsig had been watching for a long time, was perfection. Lila the eternal, is a system that is undergoing continuous improvement, in all four areas of MOQ. Same as Jiro but only in one area; sushi..
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 12:55:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I believe when asked Robert Pirsig said how the name Lila came from
> the distinct odor of the lilac bush and not from the Sanskrit word. I
> am fairly certain the MOQ does not subscribe to any notion of absolute
> reality (God, Creator) for that would connote an objective reality we
> all agree upon, the antithesis of the notion of Quality.
>
> In ZMM, Pirsig writes:
>
> "Two weeks after the vacation was over, one evening after work, I
> removed the carburetor to see what was wrong but still couldn’t find
> anything. To clean off the grease before replacing it, I turned the
> stopcock on the tank for a little gas. Nothing came out. The tank was
> out of gas. I couldn’t believe it. I can still hardly believe it."
>
> So he did not tear the whole motorcycle apart. I wouldn't mind knowing
> where you got the part about Chris saying so in front of an audience
> if you could forward that.
>
> Now, so far as the character Lila goes, 'she' was Robert Pirsig. So
> was Rigel. And Phaedrus. And the boat. The notion behind the
> development of the characters in the novel Lila had to do with
> explicating the four levels of the MOQ: the boat, inorganic, Lila,
> biological, Rigel, social, Phaedrus, intellectual.
>
> That said, there is no divine absolute perfection in the MOQ. That
> would presuppose the elimination of betterness. So to pursue such an
> entity would appear to be only done in ignorance, which I am fairly
> sure was not what Jiro or Pirsig were doing.
>
> Thanks.
>



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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan;

There is some significance to how Pirsig wrote, " —call her lila—who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on."

Notice the lower case "L" ("l"), then switches to the upper case "L". No proof reader would have allowed it, especially after several re-writes.
That "lila" was the Hindu reality. Start with lower case then go to uppercase all in one sentence?

Google Hindu lila, the majority of it is lower case, Dan.

Perf ection is a SYSTEM that is undergoing continuous improvement, nothing is ever born into a supreme end state. Nothing is ever born or can ever been born into a supreme end state,even an entity such as li-la, or lila.
Not even Jiro...

From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 1:08:09 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes, all,

Right. The immortal lila is biological. Phaedrus recalls seeing Lila
before only not Lila the single private person. What he remembers
seeing is the lila who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on.
Biological cells are billions of years old while Lila has only been
alive a short while. In comparison, yes, lila is immortal. I would
hesitate to call that perfection, however, as you yourself say the
eternal is continuously undergoing improvement. If lila is absolute
perfection, then no improvement is possible.

And yes, I believe Robert Pirsig said that he was aware of the li-la
in Hindu philosophy but that is not why he named the character Lila.

Thank you.

On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:45 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Thanks for the response Dan;
>
> ...and yes the Boat, and the Plastic Baby was Inorganic, Lila the Biological, Rigel- Social and Pirsig the Intellectual.
>
> We can never be entirely certain of anything, however Lila is a a well known and important term in Hindu philosophy. Robert Pirsig attended Banaras Hindu University in India, to study Eastern philosophy and culture.
>
> This is from Lila Chapter 1.
>
> "There is Lila, this single private person who slept beside him now, who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams and will soon enough die and then there is someone else—call her lila—who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on. The sleeping Lila he had just met tonight. But the waking Lila, who never sleeps, had been watching him and he had been watching her for a long time. "
>
> My interpretation of that, and it could be wrong, quality was reality itself, as he writes about his MOQ. It appears he also believes that the "quality that is our reality is an entity because he feels it had been watching him, and he had been watching her for a long time.
>
> Immortal is an absolute, it is not subjective, it is a term that is well defined, however as human beings we are like how Plato describes. We are chained in a cave, with a bit of light entering, we are facing the walls and we see only shadows.
>
> The entity Lila that Pirsig had been watching for a long time, was perfection. Lila the eternal, is a system that is undergoing continuous improvement, in all four areas of MOQ. Same as Jiro but only in one area; sushi..
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 12:55:10 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> I believe when asked Robert Pirsig said how the name Lila came from
> the distinct odor of the lilac bush and not from the Sanskrit word. I
> am fairly certain the MOQ does not subscribe to any notion of absolute
> reality (God, Creator) for that would connote an objective reality we
> all agree upon, the antithesis of the notion of Quality.
>
> In ZMM, Pirsig writes:
>
> "Two weeks after the vacation was over, one evening after work, I
> removed the carburetor to see what was wrong but still couldn’t find
> anything. To clean off the grease before replacing it, I turned the
> stopcock on the tank for a little gas. Nothing came out. The tank was
> out of gas. I couldn’t believe it. I can still hardly believe it."
>
> So he did not tear the whole motorcycle apart. I wouldn't mind knowing
> where you got the part about Chris saying so in front of an audience
> if you could forward that.
>
> Now, so far as the character Lila goes, 'she' was Robert Pirsig. So
> was Rigel. And Phaedrus. And the boat. The notion behind the
> development of the characters in the novel Lila had to do with
> explicating the four levels of the MOQ: the boat, inorganic, Lila,
> biological, Rigel, social, Phaedrus, intellectual.
>
> That said, there is no divine absolute perfection in the MOQ. That
> would presuppose the elimination of betterness. So to pursue such an
> entity would appear to be only done in ignorance, which I am fairly
> sure was not what Jiro or Pirsig were doing.
>
> Thanks.
>



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h

[Adrie Kintziger]

Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
projecting.


Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
altogether.
If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
first handed by Pirsig himself.
I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
excluded.

Adrie
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Ardie;

It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself.
I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me this group was dead?

Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.

If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.


From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
projecting.


Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
altogether.
If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
first handed by Pirsig himself.
I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
excluded.

Adrie
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[Adrie Kintziger]

The issue at hand is not Quality, quality,or Lila, the book is about the
'Metaphysiks' of ......The first book is about arriving without travelling.

There is no need to get exited,or solve the group related issue's .
Nobody wants a teamcoach.But i think you have been reading in Lila, and
that is important.

2017-09-25 9:11 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

> Hello Ardie;
>
> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
> himself.
> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
> this group was dead?
>
> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>
> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> projecting.
>
>
> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> altogether.
> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> first handed by Pirsig himself.
> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> excluded.
>
> Adrie
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Ardie;

I have something to say to you; you appear to sell yourself short.
I believe you can write something well beyond I could write, or Robert Persig could write.
Yes Ardie write and work on it and write and re-write it over and over again.
Thats what you should do Ardie..

From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 1:35:02 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

The issue at hand is not Quality, quality,or Lila, the book is about the
'Metaphysiks' of ......The first book is about arriving without travelling.

There is no need to get exited,or solve the group related issue's .
Nobody wants a teamcoach.But i think you have been reading in Lila, and
that is important.

2017-09-25 9:11 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

> Hello Ardie;
>
> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
> himself.
> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
> this group was dead?
>
> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>
> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> projecting.
>
>
> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> altogether.
> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> first handed by Pirsig himself.
> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> excluded.
>
> Adrie
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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[WES STEWART]

Your a kind man1

From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 1:43:02 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hello Ardie;

I have something to say to you; you appear to sell yourself short.
I believe you can write something well beyond I could write, or Robert Persig could write.
Yes Ardie write and work on it and write and re-write it over and over again.
Thats what you should do Ardie..

From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 1:35:02 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

The issue at hand is not Quality, quality,or Lila, the book is about the
'Metaphysiks' of ......The first book is about arriving without travelling.

There is no need to get exited,or solve the group related issue's .
Nobody wants a teamcoach.But i think you have been reading in Lila, and
that is important.

2017-09-25 9:11 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

> Hello Ardie;
>
> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
> himself.
> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
> this group was dead?
>
> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>
> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> projecting.
>
>
> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> altogether.
> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> first handed by Pirsig himself.
> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> excluded.
>
> Adrie
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
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>



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[Horse]

Hi All

Minor point Wes but when did I say that the MD group was dead? Apologies
if I gave that impression.

Horse

On 25/09/2017 08:11, WES STEWART wrote:
> Hello Ardie;
>
> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself.
> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me this group was dead?
>
> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>
> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> projecting.
>
>
> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> altogether.
> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> first handed by Pirsig himself.
> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> excluded.
>
> Adrie
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>

--


"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."
— Bob Moorehead

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[Adrie Kintziger]

Apparently you are alive, Horse!!

2017-09-25 10:32 GMT+02:00 Horse <***@darkstar.uk.net>:

> Hi All
>
> Minor point Wes but when did I say that the MD group was dead? Apologies
> if I gave that impression.
>
> Horse
>
>
> On 25/09/2017 08:11, WES STEWART wrote:
>
>> Hello Ardie;
>>
>> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
>> himself.
>> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
>> this group was dead?
>>
>> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
>> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>>
>> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>>
>>
>> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
>> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
>> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
>> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
>> projecting.
>>
>>
>> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on
>> a
>> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
>> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
>> altogether.
>> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
>> first handed by Pirsig himself.
>> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
>> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
>> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
>> excluded.
>>
>> Adrie
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
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>>
>>
> --
>
>
> "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
> that take our breath away."
> — Bob Moorehead
>
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>



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[Horse]

Apparently so Adrie!! :)

On 25/09/2017 09:58, Adrie Kintziger wrote:
> Apparently you are alive, Horse!!
>
> 2017-09-25 10:32 GMT+02:00 Horse <***@darkstar.uk.net>:
>
>> Hi All
>>
>> Minor point Wes but when did I say that the MD group was dead? Apologies
>> if I gave that impression.
>>
>> Horse
>>
>>
>> On 25/09/2017 08:11, WES STEWART wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Ardie;
>>>
>>> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
>>> himself.
>>> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
>>> this group was dead?
>>>
>>> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
>>> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>>>
>>> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>>>
>>>
>>> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
>>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>>> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>>
>>> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
>>> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
>>> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
>>> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
>>> projecting.
>>>
>>>
>>> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on
>>> a
>>> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
>>> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
>>> altogether.
>>> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
>>> first handed by Pirsig himself.
>>> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
>>> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
>>> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
>>> excluded.
>>>
>>> Adrie
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
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>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>>
>>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> "Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments
>> that take our breath away."
>> — Bob Moorehead
>>
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>
>

--


"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."
— Bob Moorehead

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[WES STEWART]

Hello Horse, Ardie , Dan and All;

I seem to remember, Horse that you had told me, its not really active.
Continuous improvement is dynamic quality, if views are kept in a static state then it is dead.
If the management staff of an organization or any government states they figured everything out 10 years ago, what does that mean?

That they are the sole keepers of all knowledge?
Am I the sole keeper of all knowledge?

Ardie you should write, I can learn as much from you as you could ever learn from me, which may not be much.The searching and seeking path; is the road to perfection or arete. We can all be sitting side by side from each other on a bus but experiencing life from a totally different viewpoint.The dialogue is, what ratchets us all up a small notch.

Write something Ardie, take time with your thoughts make it personal and something that comes from you.
It sounds like you have had quite a life, give it a least two months to write it, focus on your life and what you have experienced.

I am 110% certain whatever you write Ardie I will learn something from. I do not ever look back on some of your posts as being drunk, or offensive, I never thought so.
I looked at your latest experiences Ardie, and from what you had written, it brought me both laughter and tears to my eyes, and ratcheted me up a notch. My learning of quality all comes from William Edwards Deming, he had claimed the best papers he had ever read, came form students that were over 1 year late, those were the ones that he learned from.

Write something Ardie, give it 20 cycles of looking over and over again, and then we can learn something new from you, once again.






From: "horse" <***@darkstar.uk.net>
To: "moq discuss" <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 2:32:39 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi All

Minor point Wes but when did I say that the MD group was dead? Apologies
if I gave that impression.

Horse

On 25/09/2017 08:11, WES STEWART wrote:
> Hello Ardie;
>
> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself.
> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me this group was dead?
>
> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>
> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> projecting.
>
>
> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> altogether.
> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> first handed by Pirsig himself.
> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> excluded.
>
> Adrie
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>

--


"Life is not measured by the number of breaths we take, but by the moments that take our breath away."
— Bob Moorehead

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[Dan Glover]

Wes,

Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will end here.


On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Ardie;
>
> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself.
> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me this group was dead?
>
> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>
> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> projecting.
>
>
> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> altogether.
> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> first handed by Pirsig himself.
> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> excluded.
>
> Adrie
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html



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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan;

Are you the sole keeper of all knowledge on this site?

Why did you turn Ardie into a lackie; you should have stopped it.
Ardie is a good man and he should write something that I could learn from.

Why do you start with an opinion that this is a trump card, to any observations that others have made?

Phraedus attacked only those who represented a system, he never bullied his opinions on students sitting in the back row.
Everyone of us at this forum is a student sitting in the back row.

Pirsig did not want to bring any whiff of religion into any of his writings and denied it; yet it was so.

What exactly is a "Whirling dervish?" Why did Pirsig use this term?

"He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn’t whirled like that for years.
Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish."
From Lila: An Inquiry into Morals by Robert Pirsig

It is only used as a term when you feel the presence of a creator.
We whirl at young ages as Pirsig had done, we feel the presence of the creator. We whirl when we see value and quality in our reality.

A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl.

From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:11:47 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Wes,

Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will end here.


On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Ardie;
>
> It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself.
> I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me this group was dead?
>
> Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>
> If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> projecting.
>
>
> Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author), on a
> book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> altogether.
> If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> first handed by Pirsig himself.
> I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> excluded.
>
> Adrie
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html



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[Adrie Kintziger]

@ Wes.
One of the highlights in Pirsig's work, is the absence of the creator, the
'Absolute', and any form of mystic thruth, or mysticism.Pirsig made it
quite clear that they have no place in his work.In the Copleston
Annotations he rages several times about the 'Absolute', naming it as a
brand of vodka.
Its quite a bit strange that, whilst reading Lila, you accidentaly came
across these issue's regardless of some not beiing named or spoken of in
Lila.

If you feel like in need of the 'Absolute', or the presence of the creator
as an
attribute to the Moq or Lila;do not bother....you will not find them in
Pirsig's work.Nor you will find mysticism along the lines.....in interviews
he gave or comments.

I admit i pushed you a little to make you read Pirsig, or Lila,as i tought
it
would be appropriate for you to know the content.It was not my intention to
ridicule you or make myself look more clever.
Apparently you took the bait and started reading.Nice.It would be nice if
you started to discover things.... and talk about it.

Maybe you have a very nice point with this Derwish related spinning.
Probably you are not aware of it , but my wife is Turkish,and her father
came from Kayseri (the former Cesarea) and that is in the same area as
where
Konya is.The Derwishes are very well known there and i have some knowledge
of Mevlana, Rumi, and related issue's.
But of course if you keep insisting to stay on the creators path,.....our
ways will have to part.


Try to keep a hawkseye on your terms and denotations and connotations.
I will give you an example.

This is the last sentence ou the previous posting you made.
A statement made by you.

quote Wes (out of context).

"A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl."

comment A3,
only partially thrue, as Pirsig was very clear about the static Moq.
I found it back on Dr Mc Watt's site, Moq.org

The moq itself is static, unlike the Dynamic Quality it talks about.If you
can find it back on that page, i will give you a imaginary medal of honour.

But you are not the first to make the remark, and you are right a static
reality does not rock.


I still have a little aside, Wes, as you keep writing, Pursig,
Persig,Ardrie, Ardie,
and Praedus,it dawned at me that you are possible a dyslectic person?...if
so,no problem,i will not make fun out of it,but i do not see mistakes in
the other parts of your postings, possibly the corrector interferes?.Just
let me know.

A3














2017-09-30 5:59 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

> Hello Dan;
>
> Are you the sole keeper of all knowledge on this site?
>
> Why did you turn Ardie into a lackie; you should have stopped it.
> Ardie is a good man and he should write something that I could learn from.
>
> Why do you start with an opinion that this is a trump card, to any
> observations that others have made?
>
> Phraedus attacked only those who represented a system, he never bullied
> his opinions on students sitting in the back row.
> Everyone of us at this forum is a student sitting in the back row.
>
> Pirsig did not want to bring any whiff of religion into any of his
> writings and denied it; yet it was so.
>
> What exactly is a "Whirling dervish?" Why did Pirsig use this term?
>
> "He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn’t
> whirled like that for years.
> Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the
> bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish."
> From Lila: An Inquiry into Morals by Robert Pirsig
>
> It is only used as a term when you feel the presence of a creator.
> We whirl at young ages as Pirsig had done, we feel the presence of the
> creator. We whirl when we see value and quality in our reality.
>
> A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl.
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:11:47 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes,
>
> Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will end
> here.
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> > Hello Ardie;
> >
> > It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
> himself.
> > I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
> this group was dead?
> >
> > Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
> > I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
> >
> > If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
> >
> >
> > From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
> > different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> > editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> > You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> > projecting.
> >
> >
> > Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author),
> on a
> > book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
> > became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> > altogether.
> > If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
> > first handed by Pirsig himself.
> > I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> > But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
> > inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
> > excluded.
> >
> > Adrie
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>



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[Adrie Kintziger]

Oeps, i did not made a hyperlink,another google feature emerges!
disregard.

2017-09-30 18:05 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:

> @ Wes.
> One of the highlights in Pirsig's work, is the absence of the creator, the
> 'Absolute', and any form of mystic thruth, or mysticism.Pirsig made it
> quite clear that they have no place in his work.In the Copleston
> Annotations he rages several times about the 'Absolute', naming it as a
> brand of vodka.
> Its quite a bit strange that, whilst reading Lila, you accidentaly came
> across these issue's regardless of some not beiing named or spoken of in
> Lila.
>
> If you feel like in need of the 'Absolute', or the presence of the creator
> as an
> attribute to the Moq or Lila;do not bother....you will not find them in
> Pirsig's work.Nor you will find mysticism along the lines.....in interviews
> he gave or comments.
>
> I admit i pushed you a little to make you read Pirsig, or Lila,as i tought
> it
> would be appropriate for you to know the content.It was not my intention
> to ridicule you or make myself look more clever.
> Apparently you took the bait and started reading.Nice.It would be nice if
> you started to discover things.... and talk about it.
>
> Maybe you have a very nice point with this Derwish related spinning.
> Probably you are not aware of it , but my wife is Turkish,and her father
> came from Kayseri (the former Cesarea) and that is in the same area as
> where
> Konya is.The Derwishes are very well known there and i have some knowledge
> of Mevlana, Rumi, and related issue's.
> But of course if you keep insisting to stay on the creators path,.....our
> ways will have to part.
>
>
> Try to keep a hawkseye on your terms and denotations and connotations.
> I will give you an example.
>
> This is the last sentence ou the previous posting you made.
> A statement made by you.
>
> quote Wes (out of context).
>
> "A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl."
>
> comment A3,
> only partially thrue, as Pirsig was very clear about the static Moq.
> I found it back on Dr Mc Watt's site, Moq.org
>
> The moq itself is static, unlike the Dynamic Quality it talks about.If you
> can find it back on that page, i will give you a imaginary medal of honour.
>
> But you are not the first to make the remark, and you are right a static
> reality does not rock.
>
>
> I still have a little aside, Wes, as you keep writing, Pursig,
> Persig,Ardrie, Ardie,
> and Praedus,it dawned at me that you are possible a dyslectic person?...if
> so,no problem,i will not make fun out of it,but i do not see mistakes in
> the other parts of your postings, possibly the corrector interferes?.Just
> let me know.
>
> A3
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2017-09-30 5:59 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>
>> Hello Dan;
>>
>> Are you the sole keeper of all knowledge on this site?
>>
>> Why did you turn Ardie into a lackie; you should have stopped it.
>> Ardie is a good man and he should write something that I could learn from.
>>
>> Why do you start with an opinion that this is a trump card, to any
>> observations that others have made?
>>
>> Phraedus attacked only those who represented a system, he never bullied
>> his opinions on students sitting in the back row.
>> Everyone of us at this forum is a student sitting in the back row.
>>
>> Pirsig did not want to bring any whiff of religion into any of his
>> writings and denied it; yet it was so.
>>
>> What exactly is a "Whirling dervish?" Why did Pirsig use this term?
>>
>> "He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn’t
>> whirled like that for years.
>> Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the
>> bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish."
>> From Lila: An Inquiry into Morals by Robert Pirsig
>>
>> It is only used as a term when you feel the presence of a creator.
>> We whirl at young ages as Pirsig had done, we feel the presence of the
>> creator. We whirl when we see value and quality in our reality.
>>
>> A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl.
>>
>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:11:47 PM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Wes,
>>
>> Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will end
>> here.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> > Hello Ardie;
>> >
>> > It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
>> himself.
>> > I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
>> this group was dead?
>> >
>> > Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
>> > I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>> >
>> > If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>> >
>> >
>> > From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
>> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
>> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>> >
>> > Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila', in
>> > different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
>> > editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
>> > You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
>> > projecting.
>> >
>> >
>> > Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author),
>> on a
>> > book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
>> > became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
>> > altogether.
>> > If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
>> > first handed by Pirsig himself.
>> > I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
>> > But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
>> > inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
>> > excluded.
>> >
>> > Adrie
>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> > Archives:
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> > Archives:
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>
>
>
> --
> parser
>



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[Adrie Kintziger]

In 2004 already, khalil mentioned the connection of Lila => as Laila,as
the divine essence in Arabic?/related to the Whirling Derwishes,the
divine,and mysticism.

snip from the archives. (2004) i'm sure you can find it.

"http://www.moqtalk.org/archivedata/moq_discuss/2002%20-%202005/7318.html

so you have a valid case, Wes.But can we read Laila=>as Lila,if we keep in
mind that in fact Phaedrus => Faidrus or Phaidrus,(from Plato/Socrates),
obviously.!

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/plato-the-dialogues-of-plato-vol-1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue)

so Pheadros is really only the interlocutor.Derwishes can be seen as
interlocutors.One hand to the skies, one to the earth.Mystic sjamanism.
We are all whirling sjamans.We all whirl around theism sometimes.


2017-09-30 18:06 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:

> Oeps, i did not made a hyperlink,another google feature emerges!
> disregard.
>
> 2017-09-30 18:05 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> @ Wes.
>> One of the highlights in Pirsig's work, is the absence of the creator,
>> the 'Absolute', and any form of mystic thruth, or mysticism.Pirsig made it
>> quite clear that they have no place in his work.In the Copleston
>> Annotations he rages several times about the 'Absolute', naming it as a
>> brand of vodka.
>> Its quite a bit strange that, whilst reading Lila, you accidentaly came
>> across these issue's regardless of some not beiing named or spoken of in
>> Lila.
>>
>> If you feel like in need of the 'Absolute', or the presence of the
>> creator as an
>> attribute to the Moq or Lila;do not bother....you will not find them in
>> Pirsig's work.Nor you will find mysticism along the lines.....in interviews
>> he gave or comments.
>>
>> I admit i pushed you a little to make you read Pirsig, or Lila,as i
>> tought it
>> would be appropriate for you to know the content.It was not my intention
>> to ridicule you or make myself look more clever.
>> Apparently you took the bait and started reading.Nice.It would be nice
>> if you started to discover things.... and talk about it.
>>
>> Maybe you have a very nice point with this Derwish related spinning.
>> Probably you are not aware of it , but my wife is Turkish,and her father
>> came from Kayseri (the former Cesarea) and that is in the same area as
>> where
>> Konya is.The Derwishes are very well known there and i have some
>> knowledge of Mevlana, Rumi, and related issue's.
>> But of course if you keep insisting to stay on the creators path,.....our
>> ways will have to part.
>>
>>
>> Try to keep a hawkseye on your terms and denotations and connotations.
>> I will give you an example.
>>
>> This is the last sentence ou the previous posting you made.
>> A statement made by you.
>>
>> quote Wes (out of context).
>>
>> "A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl."
>>
>> comment A3,
>> only partially thrue, as Pirsig was very clear about the static Moq.
>> I found it back on Dr Mc Watt's site, Moq.org
>>
>> The moq itself is static, unlike the Dynamic Quality it talks about.If
>> you can find it back on that page, i will give you a imaginary medal of
>> honour.
>>
>> But you are not the first to make the remark, and you are right a static
>> reality does not rock.
>>
>>
>> I still have a little aside, Wes, as you keep writing, Pursig,
>> Persig,Ardrie, Ardie,
>> and Praedus,it dawned at me that you are possible a dyslectic
>> person?...if so,no problem,i will not make fun out of it,but i do not see
>> mistakes in the other parts of your postings, possibly the corrector
>> interferes?.Just let me know.
>>
>> A3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-09-30 5:59 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>>
>>> Hello Dan;
>>>
>>> Are you the sole keeper of all knowledge on this site?
>>>
>>> Why did you turn Ardie into a lackie; you should have stopped it.
>>> Ardie is a good man and he should write something that I could learn
>>> from.
>>>
>>> Why do you start with an opinion that this is a trump card, to any
>>> observations that others have made?
>>>
>>> Phraedus attacked only those who represented a system, he never bullied
>>> his opinions on students sitting in the back row.
>>> Everyone of us at this forum is a student sitting in the back row.
>>>
>>> Pirsig did not want to bring any whiff of religion into any of his
>>> writings and denied it; yet it was so.
>>>
>>> What exactly is a "Whirling dervish?" Why did Pirsig use this term?
>>>
>>> "He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn’t
>>> whirled like that for years.
>>> Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the
>>> bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish."
>>> From Lila: An Inquiry into Morals by Robert Pirsig
>>>
>>> It is only used as a term when you feel the presence of a creator.
>>> We whirl at young ages as Pirsig had done, we feel the presence of the
>>> creator. We whirl when we see value and quality in our reality.
>>>
>>> A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl.
>>>
>>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:11:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>>
>>> Wes,
>>>
>>> Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will end
>>> here.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> > Hello Ardie;
>>> >
>>> > It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
>>> himself.
>>> > I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
>>> this group was dead?
>>> >
>>> > Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
>>> > I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>>> >
>>> > If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
>>> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>> >
>>> > Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila',
>>> in
>>> > different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
>>> > editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
>>> > You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
>>> > projecting.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author),
>>> on a
>>> > book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
>>> > became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
>>> > altogether.
>>> > If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
>>> > first handed by Pirsig himself.
>>> > I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
>>> > But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
>>> > inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
>>> > excluded.
>>> >
>>> > Adrie
>>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> > Archives:
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> > Archives:
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.danglover.com
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> parser
>>
>
>
>
> --
> parser
>



--
parser
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Everyone;

The minute I hear this person is an expert, we should all follow him, its not a quality statement.
"If we are all thinking the same, then no one is really thinking." Its a quote and I agree.
It does not matter if Kahlil was shot down. Why was he shot down?
Probably most likely was to keep everyone thinking the same, that way dynamic quality can be thwarted.


From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2017 12:41:07 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

In 2004 already, khalil mentioned the connection of Lila => as Laila,as
the divine essence in Arabic?/related to the Whirling Derwishes,the
divine,and mysticism.

snip from the archives. (2004) i'm sure you can find it.

"http://www.moqtalk.org/archivedata/moq_discuss/2002%20-%202005/7318.html

so you have a valid case, Wes.But can we read Laila=>as Lila,if we keep in
mind that in fact Phaedrus => Faidrus or Phaidrus,(from Plato/Socrates),
obviously.!

http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/plato-the-dialogues-of-plato-vol-1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue)

so Pheadros is really only the interlocutor.Derwishes can be seen as
interlocutors.One hand to the skies, one to the earth.Mystic sjamanism.
We are all whirling sjamans.We all whirl around theism sometimes.


2017-09-30 18:06 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:

> Oeps, i did not made a hyperlink,another google feature emerges!
> disregard.
>
> 2017-09-30 18:05 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> @ Wes.
>> One of the highlights in Pirsig's work, is the absence of the creator,
>> the 'Absolute', and any form of mystic thruth, or mysticism.Pirsig made it
>> quite clear that they have no place in his work.In the Copleston
>> Annotations he rages several times about the 'Absolute', naming it as a
>> brand of vodka.
>> Its quite a bit strange that, whilst reading Lila, you accidentaly came
>> across these issue's regardless of some not beiing named or spoken of in
>> Lila.
>>
>> If you feel like in need of the 'Absolute', or the presence of the
>> creator as an
>> attribute to the Moq or Lila;do not bother....you will not find them in
>> Pirsig's work.Nor you will find mysticism along the lines.....in interviews
>> he gave or comments.
>>
>> I admit i pushed you a little to make you read Pirsig, or Lila,as i
>> tought it
>> would be appropriate for you to know the content.It was not my intention
>> to ridicule you or make myself look more clever.
>> Apparently you took the bait and started reading.Nice.It would be nice
>> if you started to discover things.... and talk about it.
>>
>> Maybe you have a very nice point with this Derwish related spinning.
>> Probably you are not aware of it , but my wife is Turkish,and her father
>> came from Kayseri (the former Cesarea) and that is in the same area as
>> where
>> Konya is.The Derwishes are very well known there and i have some
>> knowledge of Mevlana, Rumi, and related issue's.
>> But of course if you keep insisting to stay on the creators path,.....our
>> ways will have to part.
>>
>>
>> Try to keep a hawkseye on your terms and denotations and connotations.
>> I will give you an example.
>>
>> This is the last sentence ou the previous posting you made.
>> A statement made by you.
>>
>> quote Wes (out of context).
>>
>> "A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl."
>>
>> comment A3,
>> only partially thrue, as Pirsig was very clear about the static Moq.
>> I found it back on Dr Mc Watt's site, Moq.org
>>
>> The moq itself is static, unlike the Dynamic Quality it talks about.If
>> you can find it back on that page, i will give you a imaginary medal of
>> honour.
>>
>> But you are not the first to make the remark, and you are right a static
>> reality does not rock.
>>
>>
>> I still have a little aside, Wes, as you keep writing, Pursig,
>> Persig,Ardrie, Ardie,
>> and Praedus,it dawned at me that you are possible a dyslectic
>> person?...if so,no problem,i will not make fun out of it,but i do not see
>> mistakes in the other parts of your postings, possibly the corrector
>> interferes?.Just let me know.
>>
>> A3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2017-09-30 5:59 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>>
>>> Hello Dan;
>>>
>>> Are you the sole keeper of all knowledge on this site?
>>>
>>> Why did you turn Ardie into a lackie; you should have stopped it.
>>> Ardie is a good man and he should write something that I could learn
>>> from.
>>>
>>> Why do you start with an opinion that this is a trump card, to any
>>> observations that others have made?
>>>
>>> Phraedus attacked only those who represented a system, he never bullied
>>> his opinions on students sitting in the back row.
>>> Everyone of us at this forum is a student sitting in the back row.
>>>
>>> Pirsig did not want to bring any whiff of religion into any of his
>>> writings and denied it; yet it was so.
>>>
>>> What exactly is a "Whirling dervish?" Why did Pirsig use this term?
>>>
>>> "He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn’t
>>> whirled like that for years.
>>> Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the
>>> bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish."
>>> From Lila: An Inquiry into Morals by Robert Pirsig
>>>
>>> It is only used as a term when you feel the presence of a creator.
>>> We whirl at young ages as Pirsig had done, we feel the presence of the
>>> creator. We whirl when we see value and quality in our reality.
>>>
>>> A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl.
>>>
>>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:11:47 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>>
>>> Wes,
>>>
>>> Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will end
>>> here.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>> > Hello Ardie;
>>> >
>>> > It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
>>> himself.
>>> > I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told me
>>> this group was dead?
>>> >
>>> > Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to learn,
>>> > I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
>>> >
>>> > If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
>>> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>>> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
>>> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>> >
>>> > Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila',
>>> in
>>> > different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
>>> > editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
>>> > You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
>>> > projecting.
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the Author),
>>> on a
>>> > book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and Dan
>>> > became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
>>> > altogether.
>>> > If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was given
>>> > first handed by Pirsig himself.
>>> > I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
>>> > But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila is
>>> > inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing is
>>> > excluded.
>>> >
>>> > Adrie
>>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> > Archives:
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> > Archives:
>>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> http://www.danglover.com
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>>> Archives:
>>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> parser
>>
>
>
>
> --
> parser
>



--
parser
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Hi , Wes.

Khalil was not executed.The point he mentioned was the point you nailed to
the barngate.Its not imaginairy if others also come up with the same
insight.
I do not think that Mr Buchanan's response to Khalil's posting was an
execution in any way.Quite the opposite.David was very helpfull to explain
that the moq is approachable without the need for a creator,without the
need for the gospel.....,but he did not shred the point that was made.The
proposals
he made were to make us understand that the Moq and the novell it contains
are not the same.Nor are they reality.They are proposals and models.

The remark you and Khalil are talking about locates itself in the
novelle-part
of the book,and is not embedded in the philosophical issue's of the
book,it is not stand-alone due to be part of the interfering third person
narrator speaking along the two story's either.....It adds complexity by
the literairy swirls and philosophical vortexes it induces.The explanatory
powers of
Pirsig's pen is truly amazing.
Very fast Khalil knew he stepped on a minefield of theistic whirling and
content.That seemed to be implied.In the novelle at least.The Moq takes
another stance.

i'm impressed that you found this point, this lead-in;but my warning was
not baseless or ungrounded as you can see.It was intended to make you
carefull, make you drive responsibel.

As an aside;i'v noticed the 'ca',in your mail adress, so apparently you are
a Canadian?, if so you can deal with it if some of my words have a French
look and feel , like say'novelle' as i have to write novell.Probably you
are bilingual?, ....

Anyway. i'm not an expert.Only Pirsig himself is an expert about his work.

Adrie



2017-10-03 6:47 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

> Hello Everyone;
>
> The minute I hear this person is an expert, we should all follow him, its
> not a quality statement.
> "If we are all thinking the same, then no one is really thinking." Its a
> quote and I agree.
> It does not matter if Kahlil was shot down. Why was he shot down?
> Probably most likely was to keep everyone thinking the same, that way
> dynamic quality can be thwarted.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2017 12:41:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> In 2004 already, khalil mentioned the connection of Lila => as Laila,as
> the divine essence in Arabic?/related to the Whirling Derwishes,the
> divine,and mysticism.
>
> snip from the archives. (2004) i'm sure you can find it.
>
> "http://www.moqtalk.org/archivedata/moq_discuss/2002%20-%202005/7318.html
>
> so you have a valid case, Wes.But can we read Laila=>as Lila,if we keep in
> mind that in fact Phaedrus => Faidrus or Phaidrus,(from Plato/Socrates),
> obviously.!
>
> http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/plato-the-dialogues-of-plato-vol-1
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue)
>
> so Pheadros is really only the interlocutor.Derwishes can be seen as
> interlocutors.One hand to the skies, one to the earth.Mystic sjamanism.
> We are all whirling sjamans.We all whirl around theism sometimes.
>
>
> 2017-09-30 18:06 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:
>
> > Oeps, i did not made a hyperlink,another google feature emerges!
> > disregard.
> >
> > 2017-09-30 18:05 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> @ Wes.
> >> One of the highlights in Pirsig's work, is the absence of the creator,
> >> the 'Absolute', and any form of mystic thruth, or mysticism.Pirsig made
> it
> >> quite clear that they have no place in his work.In the Copleston
> >> Annotations he rages several times about the 'Absolute', naming it as a
> >> brand of vodka.
> >> Its quite a bit strange that, whilst reading Lila, you accidentaly came
> >> across these issue's regardless of some not beiing named or spoken of in
> >> Lila.
> >>
> >> If you feel like in need of the 'Absolute', or the presence of the
> >> creator as an
> >> attribute to the Moq or Lila;do not bother....you will not find them in
> >> Pirsig's work.Nor you will find mysticism along the lines.....in
> interviews
> >> he gave or comments.
> >>
> >> I admit i pushed you a little to make you read Pirsig, or Lila,as i
> >> tought it
> >> would be appropriate for you to know the content.It was not my intention
> >> to ridicule you or make myself look more clever.
> >> Apparently you took the bait and started reading.Nice.It would be nice
> >> if you started to discover things.... and talk about it.
> >>
> >> Maybe you have a very nice point with this Derwish related spinning.
> >> Probably you are not aware of it , but my wife is Turkish,and her father
> >> came from Kayseri (the former Cesarea) and that is in the same area as
> >> where
> >> Konya is.The Derwishes are very well known there and i have some
> >> knowledge of Mevlana, Rumi, and related issue's.
> >> But of course if you keep insisting to stay on the creators
> path,.....our
> >> ways will have to part.
> >>
> >>
> >> Try to keep a hawkseye on your terms and denotations and connotations.
> >> I will give you an example.
> >>
> >> This is the last sentence ou the previous posting you made.
> >> A statement made by you.
> >>
> >> quote Wes (out of context).
> >>
> >> "A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl."
> >>
> >> comment A3,
> >> only partially thrue, as Pirsig was very clear about the static Moq.
> >> I found it back on Dr Mc Watt's site, Moq.org
> >>
> >> The moq itself is static, unlike the Dynamic Quality it talks about.If
> >> you can find it back on that page, i will give you a imaginary medal of
> >> honour.
> >>
> >> But you are not the first to make the remark, and you are right a static
> >> reality does not rock.
> >>
> >>
> >> I still have a little aside, Wes, as you keep writing, Pursig,
> >> Persig,Ardrie, Ardie,
> >> and Praedus,it dawned at me that you are possible a dyslectic
> >> person?...if so,no problem,i will not make fun out of it,but i do not
> see
> >> mistakes in the other parts of your postings, possibly the corrector
> >> interferes?.Just let me know.
> >>
> >> A3
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2017-09-30 5:59 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
> >>
> >>> Hello Dan;
> >>>
> >>> Are you the sole keeper of all knowledge on this site?
> >>>
> >>> Why did you turn Ardie into a lackie; you should have stopped it.
> >>> Ardie is a good man and he should write something that I could learn
> >>> from.
> >>>
> >>> Why do you start with an opinion that this is a trump card, to any
> >>> observations that others have made?
> >>>
> >>> Phraedus attacked only those who represented a system, he never bullied
> >>> his opinions on students sitting in the back row.
> >>> Everyone of us at this forum is a student sitting in the back row.
> >>>
> >>> Pirsig did not want to bring any whiff of religion into any of his
> >>> writings and denied it; yet it was so.
> >>>
> >>> What exactly is a "Whirling dervish?" Why did Pirsig use this term?
> >>>
> >>> "He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn’t
> >>> whirled like that for years.
> >>> Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the
> >>> bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish."
> >>> From Lila: An Inquiry into Morals by Robert Pirsig
> >>>
> >>> It is only used as a term when you feel the presence of a creator.
> >>> We whirl at young ages as Pirsig had done, we feel the presence of the
> >>> creator. We whirl when we see value and quality in our reality.
> >>>
> >>> A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl.
> >>>
> >>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> >>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:11:47 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>>
> >>> Wes,
> >>>
> >>> Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will
> end
> >>> here.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >>> > Hello Ardie;
> >>> >
> >>> > It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
> >>> himself.
> >>> > I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told
> me
> >>> this group was dead?
> >>> >
> >>> > Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to
> learn,
> >>> > I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
> >>> >
> >>> > If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> >>> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> >>> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> >>> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila',
> >>> in
> >>> > different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> >>> > editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> >>> > You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> >>> > projecting.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the
> Author),
> >>> on a
> >>> > book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and
> Dan
> >>> > became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> >>> > altogether.
> >>> > If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was
> given
> >>> > first handed by Pirsig himself.
> >>> > I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> >>> > But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila
> is
> >>> > inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing
> is
> >>> > excluded.
> >>> >
> >>> > Adrie
> >>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> >>> > Archives:
> >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> >>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> >>> > Archives:
> >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> >>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> http://www.danglover.com
> >>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Adrie;

Keep on writing, because I am learning.

Thankyou


From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, October 3, 2017 2:57:43 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi , Wes.

Khalil was not executed.The point he mentioned was the point you nailed to
the barngate.Its not imaginairy if others also come up with the same
insight.
I do not think that Mr Buchanan's response to Khalil's posting was an
execution in any way.Quite the opposite.David was very helpfull to explain
that the moq is approachable without the need for a creator,without the
need for the gospel.....,but he did not shred the point that was made.The
proposals
he made were to make us understand that the Moq and the novell it contains
are not the same.Nor are they reality.They are proposals and models.

The remark you and Khalil are talking about locates itself in the
novelle-part
of the book,and is not embedded in the philosophical issue's of the
book,it is not stand-alone due to be part of the interfering third person
narrator speaking along the two story's either.....It adds complexity by
the literairy swirls and philosophical vortexes it induces.The explanatory
powers of
Pirsig's pen is truly amazing.
Very fast Khalil knew he stepped on a minefield of theistic whirling and
content.That seemed to be implied.In the novelle at least.The Moq takes
another stance.

i'm impressed that you found this point, this lead-in;but my warning was
not baseless or ungrounded as you can see.It was intended to make you
carefull, make you drive responsibel.

As an aside;i'v noticed the 'ca',in your mail adress, so apparently you are
a Canadian?, if so you can deal with it if some of my words have a French
look and feel , like say'novelle' as i have to write novell.Probably you
are bilingual?, ....

Anyway. i'm not an expert.Only Pirsig himself is an expert about his work.

Adrie



2017-10-03 6:47 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

> Hello Everyone;
>
> The minute I hear this person is an expert, we should all follow him, its
> not a quality statement.
> "If we are all thinking the same, then no one is really thinking." Its a
> quote and I agree.
> It does not matter if Kahlil was shot down. Why was he shot down?
> Probably most likely was to keep everyone thinking the same, that way
> dynamic quality can be thwarted.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2017 12:41:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> In 2004 already, khalil mentioned the connection of Lila => as Laila,as
> the divine essence in Arabic?/related to the Whirling Derwishes,the
> divine,and mysticism.
>
> snip from the archives. (2004) i'm sure you can find it.
>
> "http://www.moqtalk.org/archivedata/moq_discuss/2002%20-%202005/7318.html
>
> so you have a valid case, Wes.But can we read Laila=>as Lila,if we keep in
> mind that in fact Phaedrus => Faidrus or Phaidrus,(from Plato/Socrates),
> obviously.!
>
> http://oll.libertyfund.org/titles/plato-the-dialogues-of-plato-vol-1
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue)
>
> so Pheadros is really only the interlocutor.Derwishes can be seen as
> interlocutors.One hand to the skies, one to the earth.Mystic sjamanism.
> We are all whirling sjamans.We all whirl around theism sometimes.
>
>
> 2017-09-30 18:06 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:
>
> > Oeps, i did not made a hyperlink,another google feature emerges!
> > disregard.
> >
> > 2017-09-30 18:05 GMT+02:00 Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> @ Wes.
> >> One of the highlights in Pirsig's work, is the absence of the creator,
> >> the 'Absolute', and any form of mystic thruth, or mysticism.Pirsig made
> it
> >> quite clear that they have no place in his work.In the Copleston
> >> Annotations he rages several times about the 'Absolute', naming it as a
> >> brand of vodka.
> >> Its quite a bit strange that, whilst reading Lila, you accidentaly came
> >> across these issue's regardless of some not beiing named or spoken of in
> >> Lila.
> >>
> >> If you feel like in need of the 'Absolute', or the presence of the
> >> creator as an
> >> attribute to the Moq or Lila;do not bother....you will not find them in
> >> Pirsig's work.Nor you will find mysticism along the lines.....in
> interviews
> >> he gave or comments.
> >>
> >> I admit i pushed you a little to make you read Pirsig, or Lila,as i
> >> tought it
> >> would be appropriate for you to know the content.It was not my intention
> >> to ridicule you or make myself look more clever.
> >> Apparently you took the bait and started reading.Nice.It would be nice
> >> if you started to discover things.... and talk about it.
> >>
> >> Maybe you have a very nice point with this Derwish related spinning.
> >> Probably you are not aware of it , but my wife is Turkish,and her father
> >> came from Kayseri (the former Cesarea) and that is in the same area as
> >> where
> >> Konya is.The Derwishes are very well known there and i have some
> >> knowledge of Mevlana, Rumi, and related issue's.
> >> But of course if you keep insisting to stay on the creators
> path,.....our
> >> ways will have to part.
> >>
> >>
> >> Try to keep a hawkseye on your terms and denotations and connotations.
> >> I will give you an example.
> >>
> >> This is the last sentence ou the previous posting you made.
> >> A statement made by you.
> >>
> >> quote Wes (out of context).
> >>
> >> "A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl."
> >>
> >> comment A3,
> >> only partially thrue, as Pirsig was very clear about the static Moq.
> >> I found it back on Dr Mc Watt's site, Moq.org
> >>
> >> The moq itself is static, unlike the Dynamic Quality it talks about.If
> >> you can find it back on that page, i will give you a imaginary medal of
> >> honour.
> >>
> >> But you are not the first to make the remark, and you are right a static
> >> reality does not rock.
> >>
> >>
> >> I still have a little aside, Wes, as you keep writing, Pursig,
> >> Persig,Ardrie, Ardie,
> >> and Praedus,it dawned at me that you are possible a dyslectic
> >> person?...if so,no problem,i will not make fun out of it,but i do not
> see
> >> mistakes in the other parts of your postings, possibly the corrector
> >> interferes?.Just let me know.
> >>
> >> A3
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 2017-09-30 5:59 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
> >>
> >>> Hello Dan;
> >>>
> >>> Are you the sole keeper of all knowledge on this site?
> >>>
> >>> Why did you turn Ardie into a lackie; you should have stopped it.
> >>> Ardie is a good man and he should write something that I could learn
> >>> from.
> >>>
> >>> Why do you start with an opinion that this is a trump card, to any
> >>> observations that others have made?
> >>>
> >>> Phraedus attacked only those who represented a system, he never bullied
> >>> his opinions on students sitting in the back row.
> >>> Everyone of us at this forum is a student sitting in the back row.
> >>>
> >>> Pirsig did not want to bring any whiff of religion into any of his
> >>> writings and denied it; yet it was so.
> >>>
> >>> What exactly is a "Whirling dervish?" Why did Pirsig use this term?
> >>>
> >>> "He looked up in the sky and whirled. Ahhh, that felt good! He hadn’t
> >>> whirled like that for years.
> >>> Since he was four. He whirled again. The sky, the ocean, the hook, the
> >>> bay, spun round and round him. He felt like a Whirling Dervish."
> >>> From Lila: An Inquiry into Morals by Robert Pirsig
> >>>
> >>> It is only used as a term when you feel the presence of a creator.
> >>> We whirl at young ages as Pirsig had done, we feel the presence of the
> >>> creator. We whirl when we see value and quality in our reality.
> >>>
> >>> A stagnant system does not bring anyone to whirl.
> >>>
> >>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> >>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> >>> Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2017 11:11:47 PM
> >>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>>
> >>> Wes,
> >>>
> >>> Have I offended you somehow? If so, I apologize. Our discussion will
> end
> >>> here.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 2:11 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> >>> > Hello Ardie;
> >>> >
> >>> > It does not matter that Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig
> >>> himself.
> >>> > I am aware aware of that also. But tell me why, that Horse had told
> me
> >>> this group was dead?
> >>> >
> >>> > Does Dan have anything to learn? If he does not have anything to
> learn,
> >>> > I suggest he fly to Japan and have a brief conversation with Jiro.
> >>> >
> >>> > If I had the money or time I would; want to meet Jiro.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> >>> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> >>> > Sent: Monday, September 25, 2017 12:59:23 AM
> >>> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>> >
> >>> > Hi, Wes, I live in Belgium, and i have copy's of 'Zen'... and 'Lila',
> >>> in
> >>> > different language's.Belium is tri-lingual. It seems to depend on the
> >>> > editor/corrector/translator and...the several runs of it publishing.
> >>> > You are not correct as it differs for the L and l in the way you are
> >>> > projecting.
> >>> >
> >>> >
> >>> > Btw , Dan had the opportunity to work with Pirsig himself(the
> Author),
> >>> on a
> >>> > book follow -up called 'Lila's Child',to clarify some issue's, and
> Dan
> >>> > became an expert on the Subject Lila,Lila's Child, and Pirsig's work
> >>> > altogether.
> >>> > If he offers something, it is nearly as good and solid,as it was
> given
> >>> > first handed by Pirsig himself.
> >>> > I also remember Pirsig making the statement about the Lilac's odor.
> >>> > But Dan is correct,Lila is Pirsig.Lila is an imaginary product.Lila
> is
> >>> > inorganic/organic/biological/intellectual. In this summary nothing
> is
> >>> > excluded.
> >>> >
> >>> > Adrie
> >>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> >>> > Archives:
> >>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> >>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
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> >>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
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> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> parser
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > parser
> >
>
>
>
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[Dan Glover]

Wes, all,

Yes that significance was brought up in early Lila Squad discussions:

Bodvar Skutvik:
I asked Pirsig about it [Lila] shortly after publication and he said it was
like “lilac,” and that, “it was the unsubtlety of the lilac odour and the
hardiness of the bush that helped suggest her name to me.”

Robert Pirsig:
I did know about the lila of Hindu mythology and have
attended Ram Lila celebrations in India, but I never
consciously connected it with the Lila of the book. [Lila's Child]

Dan comments:
Again, in light of this, I still think Robert Pirsig used the
lowercase lila to indicate the biological level in the MOQ and how
Lila is representational of that, and not of the lila of Hindu
mythology. He pretty much says so in Lila's Child.

Thank you.

On Mon, Sep 25, 2017 at 12:44 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> There is some significance to how Pirsig wrote, " —call her lila—who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on."
>
> Notice the lower case "L" ("l"), then switches to the upper case "L". No proof reader would have allowed it, especially after several re-writes.
> That "lila" was the Hindu reality. Start with lower case then go to uppercase all in one sentence?
>
> Google Hindu lila, the majority of it is lower case, Dan.
>
> Perf ection is a SYSTEM that is undergoing continuous improvement, nothing is ever born into a supreme end state. Nothing is ever born or can ever been born into a supreme end state,even an entity such as li-la, or lila.
> Not even Jiro...
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2017 1:08:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Wes, all,
>
> Right. The immortal lila is biological. Phaedrus recalls seeing Lila
> before only not Lila the single private person. What he remembers
> seeing is the lila who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on.
> Biological cells are billions of years old while Lila has only been
> alive a short while. In comparison, yes, lila is immortal. I would
> hesitate to call that perfection, however, as you yourself say the
> eternal is continuously undergoing improvement. If lila is absolute
> perfection, then no improvement is possible.
>
> And yes, I believe Robert Pirsig said that he was aware of the li-la
> in Hindu philosophy but that is not why he named the character Lila.
>
> Thank you.
>
> On Thu, Sep 21, 2017 at 10:45 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
>> Thanks for the response Dan;
>>
>> ...and yes the Boat, and the Plastic Baby was Inorganic, Lila the Biological, Rigel- Social and Pirsig the Intellectual.
>>
>> We can never be entirely certain of anything, however Lila is a a well known and important term in Hindu philosophy. Robert Pirsig attended Banaras Hindu University in India, to study Eastern philosophy and culture.
>>
>> This is from Lila Chapter 1.
>>
>> "There is Lila, this single private person who slept beside him now, who was born and now lived and tossed in her dreams and will soon enough die and then there is someone else—call her lila—who is immortal, who inhabits Lila for a while and then moves on. The sleeping Lila he had just met tonight. But the waking Lila, who never sleeps, had been watching him and he had been watching her for a long time. "
>>
>> My interpretation of that, and it could be wrong, quality was reality itself, as he writes about his MOQ. It appears he also believes that the "quality that is our reality is an entity because he feels it had been watching him, and he had been watching her for a long time.
>>
>> Immortal is an absolute, it is not subjective, it is a term that is well defined, however as human beings we are like how Plato describes. We are chained in a cave, with a bit of light entering, we are facing the walls and we see only shadows.
>>
>> The entity Lila that Pirsig had been watching for a long time, was perfection. Lila the eternal, is a system that is undergoing continuous improvement, in all four areas of MOQ. Same as Jiro but only in one area; sushi..
>>
>>
>>
>> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
>> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
>> Sent: Thursday, September 21, 2017 12:55:10 AM
>> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>>
>> Wes, all,
>>
>> I believe when asked Robert Pirsig said how the name Lila came from
>> the distinct odor of the lilac bush and not from the Sanskrit word. I
>> am fairly certain the MOQ does not subscribe to any notion of absolute
>> reality (God, Creator) for that would connote an objective reality we
>> all agree upon, the antithesis of the notion of Quality.
>>
>> In ZMM, Pirsig writes:
>>
>> "Two weeks after the vacation was over, one evening after work, I
>> removed the carburetor to see what was wrong but still couldn’t find
>> anything. To clean off the grease before replacing it, I turned the
>> stopcock on the tank for a little gas. Nothing came out. The tank was
>> out of gas. I couldn’t believe it. I can still hardly believe it."
>>
>> So he did not tear the whole motorcycle apart. I wouldn't mind knowing
>> where you got the part about Chris saying so in front of an audience
>> if you could forward that.
>>
>> Now, so far as the character Lila goes, 'she' was Robert Pirsig. So
>> was Rigel. And Phaedrus. And the boat. The notion behind the
>> development of the characters in the novel Lila had to do with
>> explicating the four levels of the MOQ: the boat, inorganic, Lila,
>> biological, Rigel, social, Phaedrus, intellectual.
>>
>> That said, there is no divine absolute perfection in the MOQ. That
>> would presuppose the elimination of betterness. So to pursue such an
>> entity would appear to be only done in ignorance, which I am fairly
>> sure was not what Jiro or Pirsig were doing.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>
>
>
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[list]

Hello,

I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s books and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is depicted on several of the covers. I would suspect that it somehow relates to the philosophical ideas.

Any ideas?

Thank you,
Christoph
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[X Acto]

Lotus blossom.


Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 2, 2018, at 4:35 PM, list <***@bartneck.de> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s books and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is depicted on several of the covers. I would suspect that it somehow relates to the philosophical ideas.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thank you,
> Christoph
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[X Acto]

I
In Buddhist symbolism the lotus is symbolic of purity of the body, speech, and mind as while rooted in the mud, its flowers blossom on long stalks as if floating above the muddy waters of attachment and desire. It is also symbolic of detachment as drops of water easily slide off its petals.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 2, 2018, at 4:35 PM, list <***@bartneck.de> wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s books and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is depicted on several of the covers. I would suspect that it somehow relates to the philosophical ideas.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thank you,
> Christoph
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Greetings,..

I have to say, there is nothing at all in the philosophical scope of the
presented works that relates to plants or flowers.
I think it would be better to suspect the covers are different in various
parts of the world,different press runs, and different formats.
Adrie

Op di 2 okt. 2018 om 22:36 schreef list <***@bartneck.de>:

> Hello,
>
> I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s books
> and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is depicted on
> several of the covers. I would suspect that it somehow relates to the
> philosophical ideas.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thank you,
> Christoph
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http

[Horse]

Hi Christoph

The flower half of the motif on the cover of Zen and the Art of
Motorcycle Maintenance (ZAMM) is a Lotus Flower which has a special
place in Buddhism. According to Wiki:
"In*Buddhist*symbolism the*lotus*is symbolic of purity of the body,
speech, and mind as while rooted in the mud, its*flowers blossom*on long
stalks as if floating above the muddy waters of attachment and desire.
It is also symbolic of detachment as drops of water easily slide off its
petals."
The flower is Zen, the spanner the motorcycle.

Something else that may also be of interest are the markings on the spanner.
On my ancient copy of ZAMM, on the shaft of the spanner I can see 2
impressions from the 'casting'. One is 5/16W and the other is 3/8BSF.
The first is for Whitworth (or British Standard Whitworth) and the
second is for British Standard Fine which relate to bolt/thread sizes
and were used extensively on British motorcycles, before and during the
1960's.
I don't know if this is to symbolise Pirsig's links with the UK or if
it's just an artist's attention to detail. It does seem a bit
incongruous when you think that Pirsig's motorcycle was Japanese which
would likely have used the metric system. It may be some other
additional symbolism or it may be nothing!
Food for thought?

Have a look at:
https://www.ebay.com/gds/Understanding-Whitworth-BSF-AF-BA-and-metric-tools-/10000000003499809/g.html
for more background info

There are other good references to be found if you search using Google.

Good luck with your research and feel free to post again with other
questions or ideas

Horse



On 02/10/2018 21:35, list wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s books and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is depicted on several of the covers. I would suspect that it somehow relates to the philosophical ideas.
>
> Any ideas?
>
> Thank you,
> Christoph
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Hi, Horse.
Just a far pitch, would it be possible that the bike was build specific
for the American market?...(a sentence from the web)
Adrie

Op vr 5 okt. 2018 om 13:25 schreef Horse <***@darkstar.uk.net>:

> Hi Christoph
>
> The flower half of the motif on the cover of Zen and the Art of
> Motorcycle Maintenance (ZAMM) is a Lotus Flower which has a special
> place in Buddhism. According to Wiki:
> "In*Buddhist*symbolism the*lotus*is symbolic of purity of the body,
> speech, and mind as while rooted in the mud, its*flowers blossom*on long
> stalks as if floating above the muddy waters of attachment and desire.
> It is also symbolic of detachment as drops of water easily slide off its
> petals."
> The flower is Zen, the spanner the motorcycle.
>
> Something else that may also be of interest are the markings on the
> spanner.
> On my ancient copy of ZAMM, on the shaft of the spanner I can see 2
> impressions from the 'casting'. One is 5/16W and the other is 3/8BSF.
> The first is for Whitworth (or British Standard Whitworth) and the
> second is for British Standard Fine which relate to bolt/thread sizes
> and were used extensively on British motorcycles, before and during the
> 1960's.
> I don't know if this is to symbolise Pirsig's links with the UK or if
> it's just an artist's attention to detail. It does seem a bit
> incongruous when you think that Pirsig's motorcycle was Japanese which
> would likely have used the metric system. It may be some other
> additional symbolism or it may be nothing!
> Food for thought?
>
> Have a look at:
>
> https://www.ebay.com/gds/Understanding-Whitworth-BSF-AF-BA-and-metric-tools-/10000000003499809/g.html
> for more background info
>
> There are other good references to be found if you search using Google.
>
> Good luck with your research and feel free to post again with other
> questions or ideas
>
> Horse
>
>
>
> On 02/10/2018 21:35, list wrote:
> > Hello,
> >
> > I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s
> books and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is
> depicted on several of the covers. I would suspect that it somehow relates
> to the philosophical ideas.
> >
> > Any ideas?
> >
> > Thank you,
> > Christoph
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
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> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>


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[list]

Hello,

Thank you all for your comments. The flower itself does indeed look like a lotus, but the green leaves below do not. The lotus is a water plant, also known as water lily. Its plant are big round green swimming island. The leaves shown on the cover does not look like that at all. So is this a romantic (inaccurate) interpretation?

The original cover:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance#/media/File:Zen_motorcycle.jpg <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_and_the_Art_of_Motorcycle_Maintenance#/media/File:Zen_motorcycle.jpg>

Images of the lotus plant and leaves:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Nelumbo+nucifera&client=safari&rls=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiNmuDBi_XdAhXQfd4KHa9bCdUQ_AUIDigB&biw=1564&bih=1158

Any ideas?

Thank you,
Christoph


> On 6/10/2018, at 12:25 AM, Horse <***@darkstar.uk.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Christoph
>
> The flower half of the motif on the cover of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance (ZAMM) is a Lotus Flower which has a special place in Buddhism. According to Wiki:
> "In*Buddhist*symbolism the*lotus*is symbolic of purity of the body, speech, and mind as while rooted in the mud, its*flowers blossom*on long stalks as if floating above the muddy waters of attachment and desire. It is also symbolic of detachment as drops of water easily slide off its petals."
> The flower is Zen, the spanner the motorcycle.
>
> Something else that may also be of interest are the markings on the spanner.
> On my ancient copy of ZAMM, on the shaft of the spanner I can see 2 impressions from the 'casting'. One is 5/16W and the other is 3/8BSF. The first is for Whitworth (or British Standard Whitworth) and the second is for British Standard Fine which relate to bolt/thread sizes and were used extensively on British motorcycles, before and during the 1960's.
> I don't know if this is to symbolise Pirsig's links with the UK or if it's just an artist's attention to detail. It does seem a bit incongruous when you think that Pirsig's motorcycle was Japanese which would likely have used the metric system. It may be some other additional symbolism or it may be nothing!
> Food for thought?
>
> Have a look at:
> https://www.ebay.com/gds/Understanding-Whitworth-BSF-AF-BA-and-metric-tools-/10000000003499809/g.html
> for more background info
>
> There are other good references to be found if you search using Google.
>
> Good luck with your research and feel free to post again with other questions or ideas
>
> Horse
>
>
>
> On 02/10/2018 21:35, list wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> I am working on some research about the various editions of Pirsig’s books and I was wondering if anybody would know what flower/plant is depicted on several of the covers. I would suspect that it somehow relates to the philosophical ideas.
>>
>> Any ideas?
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Christoph
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
> --
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html

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[X Acto]

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 12, 2017, at 2:54 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:

>> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
>> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
>> description in Chapter 8.
>> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
>> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
>> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
>> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
>> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
>> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
>> intelligent move?
>>
>> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>>
>> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
>> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
>> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
>> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
>> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
>> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
>> another factory."
>>
>> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
>> patterns of thought are left intact,
>> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
>> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
>> Pirsig
>>
>> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
>> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
>> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
>> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
>> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
>> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
>> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
>> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.

Ron replies :
Thanks for the clarification Wes, I'm going to read up on Deming and hopefully I can speak to you with alittle more precision .
I am very interested in this subject matter.



.
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Ardie;

They actually do closely predict reality, nature does display patterns. It may seem odd that there is a level of predictability to our reality but there is. Halloween is approaching next month tell me Ardie, do we normally get a few children that show up at 5:00 PM then increases in visits and peaks then falls off around 8:00 PM. It forms a bell curve, upper control limit, average and lower control limits.

How about average male heights, female heights follow the same pattern, sure there are giants and dwarfs but this is due to special causes. At Bell labs they were used to take measurements, in a factory setting, for example, the machining of drive shafts. When Shewhart and Deming tried to target a specific width for a drive shaft lets say 1.1513 inches the more wilder the measurements became. They wanted close tolerances of the shaft inside a bearing, less play, less clunky, longer life and higher quality of a machine. When they tried to target 1.1513 by making adjustments they measured 1.2517, 1.0512.

When they decided not to aim for a target standard and just let the experienced worker do his work, they measured tolerances in a run of twenty drive shafts for example from 1.1508 to 1.1523. They called this common cause variation, the best tools with the best machine and an experienced machinist produced these results. They would take measurements off the assembly line for a run of twenty, if any measurement was beyond the common cause variation, the assembly line would shut down.

They would investigate why it has fallen outside of the control limits; poorly trained machinist, worn tools, worn bearings on the machine tools and then they would fix these problems and start up the assembly line and take measurements once again. Deming was in charge of quality during World War II and trained managers and engineers of munition, aircraft, vehicle, and other war factories. The Japanese Society of Engineers claimed this was one of the reasons they lost World War II, American war production quality was vastly superior to theirs.


From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:37:36 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi, all , Wes.

I took a snip of your proposal/story

"

I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
This is a simple story.

The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.

I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
or fractures that occur every month.

I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
might.

At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.

Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.

Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.

Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
them were wearing something with good solid ankle support

I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
attributes.

At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.


I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.

I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
specific to ankle injuries.

Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
ankle sprain injuries."

I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
with some ideas and we implement those changes......

-------------------------------

(Adrie)
This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.

I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.

Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
other side,he asks to the statician,"can i safely pass the stream here?",
...Yeah you really can the statician says, the average depth here is around
knee depth only.So the dude starts walking to the other side,only to drown
in a part of the river that has some greater depth.Statistically very
normal of course.

What i can see in your model , Wes , is that you create story's like this to
make something clear by adding complexity to the model.If i compare my
example with yours, the case is the same, but you will introduce say like
the speed of the stream, the position of the rocks in the riverbed,the
rotation of the earth,the lenght of the guy, can he swim or not?;;;;;etc,
but!, models like this
wil tell us nothing, at all,about philosophy.They fail to predict
reality.Or morality.



2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

>
> Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> Thanks for the response Ardie;
>
> Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> still work for quality.
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> those attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct
> manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> those ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes.
>
> Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month maybe
> we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
>
> Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> description in Chapter 8.
> Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think that
> the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out of
> what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM can
> create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> intelligent move?
>
> Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
>
> "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the real
> system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought which
> produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> another factory."
>
> "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same systematic
> patterns of thought are left intact,
> then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> Pirsig
>
> In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
>
> From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hell Dan and All;
> >
> > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state
> of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> >
> > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> Biologically dominated human beings.
> >
> Ron interjects:
> Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> defined the term "SYSTEM".
> In system theory it is defined as
> an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by its
> boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the system
> is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> system or the operations may result in system failure.
> With the goal being isotelesis.
> the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
>
>
>
>
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Only a quick reaction today; some other things came up.

snip
"They actually do closely predict reality, nature does display patterns. It
may seem odd that there is a level of predictability to our reality but
there is. "
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I agree for a part.But keep in mind that truths like this are conditional.
The sun comes up , the sun goes down,for millions of years,day after day,so
it will be a good 'assumption' to 'predict' that it will do so tomorrow.But
is it?,..
or was there a flaw when the dino's died out,at previous impacts of
unprovable
meteorites-strikes?, will de sun set tomorrow,or shall we wake up in a
nuclear winter?. What if the sun becomes a supernovae?.......

Is the predictability a conditional assumtion?,or should it be a carved in
stone
thruth, uniquely and uniformly tied to the fact?

Are there models outside antropology using statistics to predict
morality,or explaining morality by the grace of math?. can i doubt it? if
we take a value based philosophy can we take it for sure Cristian morality
is acceptable?.

what if i superpose virtue or betternes,goodness,fitness in stead of
quality?

I had no idea you guys were that clever btw, Mr chu is a very strong
analitical
thinker.Wes is very wide spectrum.top dollar.



2017-09-12 20:06 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:

> Hello Ardie;
>
> They actually do closely predict reality, nature does display patterns. It
> may seem odd that there is a level of predictability to our reality but
> there is. Halloween is approaching next month tell me Ardie, do we normally
> get a few children that show up at 5:00 PM then increases in visits and
> peaks then falls off around 8:00 PM. It forms a bell curve, upper control
> limit, average and lower control limits.
>
> How about average male heights, female heights follow the same pattern,
> sure there are giants and dwarfs but this is due to special causes. At Bell
> labs they were used to take measurements, in a factory setting, for
> example, the machining of drive shafts. When Shewhart and Deming tried to
> target a specific width for a drive shaft lets say 1.1513 inches the more
> wilder the measurements became. They wanted close tolerances of the shaft
> inside a bearing, less play, less clunky, longer life and higher quality of
> a machine. When they tried to target 1.1513 by making adjustments they
> measured 1.2517, 1.0512.
>
> When they decided not to aim for a target standard and just let the
> experienced worker do his work, they measured tolerances in a run of twenty
> drive shafts for example from 1.1508 to 1.1523. They called this common
> cause variation, the best tools with the best machine and an experienced
> machinist produced these results. They would take measurements off the
> assembly line for a run of twenty, if any measurement was beyond the common
> cause variation, the assembly line would shut down.
>
> They would investigate why it has fallen outside of the control limits;
> poorly trained machinist, worn tools, worn bearings on the machine tools
> and then they would fix these problems and start up the assembly line and
> take measurements once again. Deming was in charge of quality during World
> War II and trained managers and engineers of munition, aircraft, vehicle,
> and other war factories. The Japanese Society of Engineers claimed this was
> one of the reasons they lost World War II, American war production quality
> was vastly superior to theirs.
>
>
> From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2017 10:37:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi, all , Wes.
>
> I took a snip of your proposal/story
>
> "
>
> I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> This is a simple story.
>
> The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for a
> company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering injuries.
> He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because an
> employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
>
> I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle sprain
> or fractures that occur every month.
>
> I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> might.
>
> At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
>
> Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
>
> Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a state
> of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would say
> there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
>
> Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
>
> I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am impressed
> with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle support is in
> a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort and support,
> then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with those
> attributes.
>
> At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add in
> that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots, they
> just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years, in
> spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of our
> most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
>
>
> I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the system.
> As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working environment
> for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
>
> I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers. Now
> that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> specific to ankle injuries.
>
> Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells me
> upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle injury
> months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation. "Common
> cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue, having a
> baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static patterns of
> quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees direct manager
> affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from fellow
> employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all, who can
> think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause those
> ankle sprain injuries."
>
> I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business men
> cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety and
> quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> with some ideas and we implement those changes......
>
> -------------------------------
>
> (Adrie)
> This is not so very different from the story earlier on,in wich case you
> proposed a mechanism swinging around a hinge of variables.
>
> I did re-read it several times to reconsider, but i have to come back to my
> first comment.It is not critisism but common sense.
> I can tell the story with fewer words and lesser vocabulary pitch.But it is
> an example to make something clear.Not to ridicule you.
>
> Ok, lets say a guy comes at the banks of the Amazon, finding a statician at
> the waterline collecting statistical depth table's.As he likes to go to the
> other side,he asks to the statician,"can i safely pass the stream here?",
> ...Yeah you really can the statician says, the average depth here is around
> knee depth only.So the dude starts walking to the other side,only to drown
> in a part of the river that has some greater depth.Statistically very
> normal of course.
>
> What i can see in your model , Wes , is that you create story's like this
> to
> make something clear by adding complexity to the model.If i compare my
> example with yours, the case is the same, but you will introduce say like
> the speed of the stream, the position of the rocks in the riverbed,the
> rotation of the earth,the lenght of the guy, can he swim or not?;;;;;etc,
> but!, models like this
> wil tell us nothing, at all,about philosophy.They fail to predict
> reality.Or morality.
>
>
>
> 2017-09-11 5:44 GMT+02:00 WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca>:
>
> >
> > Hello Dan, Andrew and X-Acto;
> > I have responded to your question towards the end X-Acto.
> > Thanks for the response Ardie;
> >
> > Yes these are old ideas, concepts that are approaching 90 years, yet they
> > still work for quality.
> >
> > I will build a story, that gives you an idea of Deming, and how his
> > philosophy enhances Pirsig, and how Pirsig's philosophy enhances Deming.
> > This is a simple story.
> >
> > The story begins with let us say; I am a new quality /safety manager for
> a
> > company with 500 employees that work outdoors.
> > A senior manager comes to me and tells me the workers injury compensation
> > payments are too high. He tells me to do something about lowering
> injuries.
> > He also adds its costing him on around $3000 dollars per injury, because
> an
> > employee sits on average 4 days before recovering from their injury.
> >
> > I have some statistical data of injuries from the previous 36 months. It
> > appears that ankle injuries are the most frequently occurring injuries. I
> > add up the ankle injuries for the 36 months, I then divide by 36 and come
> > up with a number of 41. So on average this organization has 41 ankle
> sprain
> > or fractures that occur every month.
> >
> > I want to do something because it is a moral thing; lowering that average
> > will also reduce the number of people who suffer pain and injury each
> > month. Would someone say my moral thinking is subjective? A psychopath
> > might.
> >
> > At this point I calculate standard deviation of 1, and come up with an
> > upper limit of 47 ankle injuries and a lower limit of 35, I calculate
> > standard deviation of 2 upper limit 53, lower limit of 29. I calculate
> > standard deviation of 3 upper limit of 59 and a lower limit 23.
> >
> > Next month I can forecast the ankle injury rate with 99% certainty will
> > fall between 59 and 23. I can also say that 68% of the time it will fall
> > between a standard deviation of 1, from 47 to 35.
> >
> > Pirsig would call this a static pattern, Deming would say it is in a
> state
> > of statistical process control. Pirsig would say it's a system that will
> > not change unless there is "dynamic quality" added to it. Deming would
> say
> > there has to be some "special cause" variation in order for change to
> > happen, the static pattern he see's is "common cause" variation, it's a
> > normal distribution curve, it is a normal pattern that occurs in nature.
> >
> > Let's say I do some research and visit 50 employees out in the field, and
> > startled to find that 48 of them wear low cut running shoes, only two of
> > them were wearing something with good solid ankle support
> >
> > I go to several work boot suppliers, ask them for advice and I am
> > impressed with one of them having so much knowledge on what good ankle
> > support is in a workboot. What's average better and best, in both comfort
> > and support, then he shows me the longest lasting, high quality boot with
> > those attributes.
> >
> > At a company meeting, I explain my rational and ask upper management to
> > reimburse every employee for boot purchase from that one supplier. I add
> in
> > that boots are personal protective equipment, and OHS regulations require
> > us to reimburse our employees for this. Maybe there is a large debate,
> > maybe the accountant says, "the guys out in the field are all idiots,
> they
> > just have to be more careful." Maybe at the end of the meeting the CEO
> > steps in and says "We have not been able to lower that rate in 3 years,
> in
> > spite of threats of termination and terminations, we have lost lots of
> our
> > most productive employees." He then agrees to go with my recommendations.
> >
> >
> > I have done something to change the system, we wanted to see that average
> > of 41 ankle injuries per month drop, and if we make the next month
> > measurement and find, that it is below 23 (standard deviation of 3) , it
> > may mean something. It may mean that the process of how ankle injuries
> > occurr is no longer a stable process, something has changed in the
> system.
> > As more people purchase boots we see, it drops to 20 then the following
> > month it goes to 15, thats a trend, because in the past 3 years it never
> > went below 23. Thats improvement in the quality of the working
> environment
> > for employees out in the field, thats something that is measureable.
> >
> > I measure the ankle injury rate for another 36 months, after the changes,
> > and see that the average is now 13 with the Upper control limit is 21 and
> > the lower control limit is now 0, thats real, we can see those numbers.
> Now
> > that is an improvement in the quality of the working environment of 68%,
> > specific to ankle injuries.
> >
> > Maybe the CEO talks with me about those 0 ankle injury months, and tells
> > me upper management has decided that they want them all to be 0 ankle
> > injury months. I try to explain to him about human beings and variation.
> > "Common cause variation in rain, wind, heat, terrain, stress, fatigue,
> > having a baby, and worried about keeping your job all fix those static
> > patterns of quality, from 0 to 21. Even the support of an employees
> direct
> > manager affect those numbers along with cooperation and teamwork from
> > fellow employees. Threats of firings or lay-off's do not help, after all,
> > who can think clearly when they are agitated, because distractions cause
> > those ankle sprain injuries."
> >
> > I tell him to expect the average to remain the same around 13. I tell him
> > the 0-21 variation from month to month is a normal distribution pattern
> > that is seen in nature. I state to him matter of factly, that business
> men
> > cannot really make demands on nature or science to change. Both safety
> and
> > quality will always see these normal distribution patterns, and for that
> > reason it will never reach 0 every month. I say to him that I will try to
> > come up with some other ways to improve the quality of the working
> > environment for our employees, but expect it not to move until I come up
> > with some ideas and we implement those changes.
> >
> > Maybe the accountant meets me in the hallway moments later and says, " We
> > can have a 0 ankle injury month, and if you cannot do it every month
> maybe
> > we should hire a quality/ safety manager that can."
> >
> > Hello X-Acto, I will keep to Pirsigs or Demings description of a SYSTEM,
> > because both of them talk about corruption, you can review Pirsigs full
> > description in Chapter 8.
> > Pirsig is extremely artful in his description because he has a Doctorate
> > in Creative Writing; Deming a physicist, mathematician, and statistician,
> > sometimes outwardly states they are corrupted by their greed. I think
> that
> > the systems theorists description that you sent me was well thought out
> of
> > what it should be; but naive as to what happens in real life, a SYSTEM
> can
> > create the Iraq war and unknowingly produce an ISIS, but was it really an
> > intelligent move?
> >
> > Here is some of what Pirsig states in Chapter 8;
> >
> > "But to tear down a factory or revolt against a government....because it
> > is a system is to attack effects rather than causes, and as long as the
> > attack is against effects, no change is possible. The true system, the
> real
> > system is the construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of
> > thought, and if a factory is torn down but the rationality of thought
> which
> > produced it is left standing, then that rationality will simply produce
> > another factory."
> >
> > "If a revolution destroys a systematic government, but the same
> systematic
> > patterns of thought are left intact,
> > then those same patterns will repeat themselves in succeeding
> > governments." From Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance by Robert
> > Pirsig
> >
> > In this imaginary story "the real system is the construction of systemic
> > thought itself, rationality of thought" of the capitalist system
> > which is based wholly on greed and self interest, which is a part of
> > government just as much as it is part of business. The rationality of the
> > CEO and the accountant in this made up story is the real system, "the
> > construction of systemic thought itself, rationality of thought",is not
> > science its disturbed and biased and will always make poor decisions
> > concerning quality because of self interest, self importance and greed.
> >
> > From: "X Acto" <***@rocketmail.com>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 9, 2017 11:23:21 AM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > > On Sep 7, 2017, at 11:35 AM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > >
> > > From: "WES STEWART" <***@shaw.ca>
> > > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> > > Sent: Wednesday, September 6, 2017 10:15:27 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> > >
> > > Hell Dan and All;
> > >
> > > I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from
> > William Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart
> > and Deming were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission
> > lines at Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a
> state
> > of continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then
> > used their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
> > >
> > > Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the
> > SYSTEM, in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from
> > Biologically dominated human beings.
> > >
> > Ron interjects:
> > Hello Wes,Dan, All,
> > I've been following the thread off and on and I was curious about how Wes
> > defined the term "SYSTEM".
> > In system theory it is defined as
> > an entity with interrelated and interdependent parts; it is defined by
> its
> > boundaries and it is more than the sum of its parts (subsystem).
> > Positive growth and adaptation of a system depend upon how well the
> system
> > is adjusted with its environment, and systems often exist to accomplish a
> > common purpose (a work function) that also aids in the maintenance of the
> > system or the operations may result in system failure.
> > With the goal being isotelesis.
> > the intelligent direction of effort toward the achievement of an end.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>
>
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Thanks to explain,Wes,i apologise for a bad judgement on my behalf. your
knowledge is as good as mine, and Anyone else. I have only a very thin
laden mindset on the field of fitness, survival of the fittest, and fitness
in Turing machines. I nested the term quality in the content and context of
your posting ,honestly, not to attach iT to fitness,or superpose or
substituate it in its meaning,.......but i believe that Pirsig was heading
for another direction in his interpr of the term.Nobody needs to adopt iT
of course! of you like to talk about other Things i Will engage decent
postings. Adrie.

Op donderdag 7 september 2017 heeft WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> het
volgende geschreven:

> Hell Dan and All;
>
> I get a lot of my philosophy of quality, not from Pirsig but from William
> Edwards Deming. It was back in the twenties when Walter Shewhart and Deming
> were searching for ways to improve the Quality of transmission lines at
> Bell Labs. They had defined Quality as a SYSTEM that is in a state of
> continuous improvement. Shewhart and Deming looked at all SYSTEMs then used
> their intellect or reason to search for ways to improve the SYSTEM.
>
> Martin Luther King also used his intellect for ways to improve the SYSTEM,
> in which he paid the ultimate price that was delivered from Biologically
> dominated human beings.
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> Sent: Tuesday, September 5, 2017 5:02:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> '
> Wes, all,
>
> Quality exists in thought and deed. Sure. The future? No idea about
> that. I'd say there's an even chance no matter what we project the
> future to be, we'll be wrong. But even that supposition is apt to be
> mistaken. This moment so fleeting, I do my best to keep close to it
> and not worry too much about the past or bother with the future. I
> look at both as malleable, dependent upon this moment to exist.
>
> I met a couple from New Mexico while watching the eclipse last month.
> New agers. They had their crystals laid out on a prayer rug to soak in
> the energy from the eclipse and when I went to pick one up they damned
> near stroked out. Don't touch it! she hollers, like I'm about to reach
> out and stroke a live rattlesnake. Apparently my negative energy'd
> wreck havoc with the crystal. I'm the only person who has ever handled
> it, she says, as a means of apology I think. I wanted to explain to
> her that unless she dug a cave into the side of a mountain to burrow
> on her belly and extract the crystal and then polished it to a high
> sheen, odds were somebody else definitely touched the stone somewhere
> along the way, but hey.
>
> I think we many times become blind to other than that which we value.
> Like that woman with the crystal, we become defensive about the
> choices we make. We work a job we hate on account of culture informing
> us how we have to earn a living - somehow. It isn't that money is
> evil. Rather, often times we tend to overlook what we have to do in
> order to accrue it. The value of having a fine home and driving a
> shiny car obscure the feelings of remorse in how we spend our days
> earning it. Until it is too late.
>
> One of my favorite parts in ZMM is when the narrator and Chris are
> tooling down the highway in a rainstorm and the bike is slowly
> petering out 50mph 40 30 20 and as they are coasting along in a
> torrential downpour some lady is staring out her car window at them in
> horror and that's how I feel when I hear people hating on their jobs.
> Only I'm not the lady in the car, oh no. I'm the guy on the bike doing
> me some living. So there's that...
>
> On Sun, Sep 3, 2017 at 12:58 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> > Hello Dan;
> >
> > What did Pirsig think was more of a reality, truth or quality? The
> sophists and Plato insisted quality was and so did Pirsig, there is nothing
> vague about it. All of his students could not define it, they could also
> measure it and agree. Truth should have never usurped quality (or the good)
> as the reality, for its subject object based. Pirsig swaps things around;
> the present state is a horse and carriage, the future state is the
> automobile. Now what is the state that you would define that is in between
> them? He cannot analyze the point that is in between both, all he knows is
> that it is defined as quality. Why it should exist this ratcheting we do
> not know? The space in between the betterment is what was the cause of
> Pirsigs first breakdown. That space is undefinable, why it even exists who
> knows.
> >
> > I can say that quality exists in what Andrew thought, ask me as to the
> space in between past employer and present employer what is it? I do not
> know.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> > To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> > Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 9:30:04 PM
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Wes, all,
> >
> > I'm unsure what you strongly disagree with. That the MOQ states there
> > is no true reality? From Lila:
> >
> > "Historically mystics have claimed that for a true understanding of
> > reality metaphysics is too "scientific." Metaphysics is not reality.
> > Metaphysics is names about reality. Metaphysics is a restaurant where
> > they give you a thirty-thousand page menu and no food."
> >
> > "The central reality of mysticism, the reality that Phaedrus had
> > called "Quality" in his first book, is not a metaphysical chess piece.
> > Quality doesn't have to be defined. You understand it without
> > definition, ahead of definition. Quality is a direct experience
> > independent of and prior to intellectual abstractions."
> >
> > "Quality is indivisible, undefinable and unknowable in the sense that
> > there is a knower and a known, but a metaphysics can be none of these
> > things. A metaphysics must be divisible, definable, and know­ able, or
> > there isn't any metaphysics. Since a metaphysics is essentially a kind
> > of dialectical definition and since Quality is essentially outside
> > definition, this means that a "Metaphysics of Quality" is essentially
> > a contradiction in terms, a logical absurdity."
> >
> > A logical absurdity, yes. In this sense, Robert Pirsig defined static
> > quality but kept Dynamic Quality concept free. So no. Pirsig did not
> > define exactitude as in absolute truth. More from Lila:
> >
> > "There's a principle in physics that if a thing can't be distinguished
> > from anything else it doesn't exist. To this the Metaphysics of
> > Quality adds a second principle: if a thing has no value it isn't
> > distinguished from anything else. Then, putting the two together, a
> > thing that has no value does not exist. The thing has not created the
> > value. The value has created the thing. When it is seen that value is
> > the front edge of experience, there is no problem for empiricists
> > here. It simply restates the empiricists' belief that experience is
> > the starting point of all reality. The only problem is for a
> > subject-object metaphysics that calls itself empiricism.
> >
> > " This may sound as though a purpose of the Metaphysics of Quality is
> > to trash all subject-object thought but that's not true. Unlike
> > sub­ject-object metaphysics the Metaphysics of Quality does not insist
> > on a single exclusive truth. If subjects and objects are held to be
> > the ultimate reality then we're permitted only one construction of
> > things-that which corresponds to the "objective" world-and all other
> > constructions are unreal. But if Quality or excellence is seen as the
> > ultimate reality then it becomes possible for more than one set of
> > truths to exist.
> >
> > "Then one doesn't seek the absolute "Truth."
> >
> > "One seeks instead the highest quality intellectual explanation of
> > things with the knowledge that if the past is any guide to the future
> > this explanation must be taken provisionally; as useful until
> > something better comes along. One can then examine intellectual
> > realities the same way he examines paintings in an art gallery, not
> > with an effort to find out which one is the "real" painting, but
> > simply to enjoy and keep those that are of value. There are many sets
> > of intellectual reality in existence and we can perceive some to have
> > more quality than others, but that we do so is, in part, the result of
> > our history and current patterns of values."
> >
> > Let's stop here for now. If you are still feeling disagreeable, please
> > specify why.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 1:28 AM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >> Hello Dan;
> >>
> >> I disagree strongly, Pirsig defines an exactitude, Andrew is there, he
> is making the world a better place,he is a quality thinker. Quality is the
> reality, if I can look at my twenty year old work boots or hockey skates
> that is a static pattern of quality, in 2017 we have something entirely
> different.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com <javascript:;>>
> >> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org <javascript:;>>
> >> Sent: Saturday, September 2, 2017 12:08:28 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >>
> >> Wes, all,
> >>
> >> I'm pretty sure the MOQ says how there is no 'true' reality. I think
> >> it was John Carl who said someone developed a mirror to show a person
> >> their 'true' image. Only if you stop and consider how we view reality
> >> through the lens of our own personal history, it becomes apparent what
> >> is true for one person isn't for another.
> >>
> >> Interacting with others is not biological quality but rather social
> >> quality patterns. That isn't to say social quality is composed of
> >> biological beings, however. Rather it is the relationships existing
> >> between people which comprise social patterns. So it behooves us all
> >> to take care with who we interact no matter the circumstances.
> >>
> >> Biological quality has nothing to do with intellectual quality.
> >> Meaning and purpose are intellectual patterns which can indeed rely on
> >> comfort and money. What's the old saying? It is hard to remember how
> >> you're original intention was to drain the swamp when you're up to
> >> your ass in alligators. In other words, when a person is beset by
> >> poverty, their primary goal in life is to feed house and clothe their
> >> family. Not doing philosophy.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 30, 2017 at 11:01 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca
> <javascript:;>> wrote:
> >>> Hello Andrew and Dan,
> >>>
> >>> There are two realities that we feel. The intellectual reality and our
> biological reality. Pursig defined the only true reality, and he was right,
> you have to bring morality and classical scientific thought together. Its
> not all about the physics of bowling balls and the trajectory of a missile
> that are the only things we can measure.
> >>>
> >>> We can measure honesty, fairness, respect and kindness, its not
> subjective, and is inherent and part of our reality.
> >>>
> >>> It is difficult to build quality into ones own biological life,
> because it is highly dependent on those who surround you, the ones you
> interact with. It would be very difficult for a World War ll concentration
> camp prisoner to find meaning and purpose from his biological side, however
> it is possible that quality was found from the higher intellectual side,
> because meaning and purpose, like you have already said Andrew, does not
> rely on comfort level or money.
> >>>
> >>> Money could have easily bought your way out of a concentration camp at
> that time; according to the utmost scholar of holocaust studies Raul
> Hilberg.
> >>>
> >>
> >> http://www.danglover.com
> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
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> >
> >
> >
> > --
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Hi , Dan,all..

Money and work are mountains we all have to climb, there would be no decent
or valid point to make, when at the same time trying to avoid to climb and
willing to be at the summit in the same framing.
I like the word 'framing'.
It is never only the money or the work that is framing us in the job or in
our lives,the frame contains lots of components that are even so determinant
for our existence...,
Social patterns.Geografical patterns.Political patterns.'Mother the Wife'.
Distances.Oceans .
I need no fantasy or bright brain to know that i'll have commitments other
than work and money related.It makes a very big difference for me , now that
i'm retired.The frame itself becomes lesser important.But it is never
absent.

Reviewing what you and Wes wrote, i can say that some possibilities
are very easyly overlooked.It comes along with the the frame to do so.
The mechanisms are repeated. If one American buys tannerite to blow up
some rodents ,other fellow Americans will follow his example and blow up
some pigeons with tannerite.But of course this is a simplified example to
point to something.Do not buy tannerite.Do not blow up rodents,youtube is
full of it.......

There are ways to step out of the frame that is yours and is framing you
where you are,without the need to leave it.Start writing. Keep on
writing,and start travelling the world around with some magic stroke's on
your keyboard
It does not have to be non-fiction.Fiction is allowed.
Allocate your soul at the helm of your computer and write about the events
you see,the toughts you have,...........The list is endless.

Sorry for this short reading and write back to you Dan, but i was in the
Hospital this week for epidural injections in my neck and spinal cord.
Had to take it real easy.Still a very numb feeling in my arms and thumbs
and shoulders.Very numb and very annoying.
The Cloud Atlas book arrived today.I can start reading it, maybe i will
take it with me to Turkey next week,i have a 10 day's holliday.I go to
Bodrum.
Look around in Erdoganistan...(pun), That will give me some time to read.

Welcome Andrew and Wes, btw.Feel free to interact anyway.
And no, English is not my language.I'm a Belgian.

Adrie








2017-08-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:

> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
> >
> > Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect
> with and venture into that quality connection.
> >
> > Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw
> it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last
> 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression
> across the world.
> >
> > We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing,
> strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to
> express our quality and so little quality to express.
> >
> > That needs to change.
> >
> > From: Dan Glover
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> > To: ***@moqtalk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hi Adrie,
> > Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
> >> the
> >> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
> >> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
> >> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for
> them,and
> >> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
> >> emerge?......,
> >>
> >> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
> >> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
> >> everything is anew every day.
> >>
> >> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
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[WES STEWART]

Hello Ardrie;

Thanks for your writing. I can see that quality is to be original, if someone writes and says to use tannerite when you see no use if tannerite, step up and object. Step out of the frame or static social pattern.
I also agree Ardrie that we all should become writers and write the best book we should ever read.




From: "Adrie Kintziger" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Friday, August 25, 2017 10:11:11 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi , Dan,all..

Money and work are mountains we all have to climb, there would be no decent
or valid point to make, when at the same time trying to avoid to climb and
willing to be at the summit in the same framing.
I like the word 'framing'.
It is never only the money or the work that is framing us in the job or in
our lives,the frame contains lots of components that are even so determinant
for our existence...,
Social patterns.Geografical patterns.Political patterns.'Mother the Wife'.
Distances.Oceans .
I need no fantasy or bright brain to know that i'll have commitments other
than work and money related.It makes a very big difference for me , now that
i'm retired.The frame itself becomes lesser important.But it is never
absent.

Reviewing what you and Wes wrote, i can say that some possibilities
are very easyly overlooked.It comes along with the the frame to do so.
The mechanisms are repeated. If one American buys tannerite to blow up
some rodents ,other fellow Americans will follow his example and blow up
some pigeons with tannerite.But of course this is a simplified example to
point to something.Do not buy tannerite.Do not blow up rodents,youtube is
full of it.......

There are ways to step out of the frame that is yours and is framing you
where you are,without the need to leave it.Start writing. Keep on
writing,and start travelling the world around with some magic stroke's on
your keyboard
It does not have to be non-fiction.Fiction is allowed.
Allocate your soul at the helm of your computer and write about the events
you see,the toughts you have,...........The list is endless.

Sorry for this short reading and write back to you Dan, but i was in the
Hospital this week for epidural injections in my neck and spinal cord.
Had to take it real easy.Still a very numb feeling in my arms and thumbs
and shoulders.Very numb and very annoying.
The Cloud Atlas book arrived today.I can start reading it, maybe i will
take it with me to Turkey next week,i have a 10 day's holliday.I go to
Bodrum.
Look around in Erdoganistan...(pun), That will give me some time to read.

Welcome Andrew and Wes, btw.Feel free to interact anyway.
And no, English is not my language.I'm a Belgian.

Adrie








2017-08-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:

> Andrew, all,
>
> If money were no object, what would you do?
>
> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
> >
> > Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect
> with and venture into that quality connection.
> >
> > Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw
> it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last
> 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression
> across the world.
> >
> > We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing,
> strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to
> express our quality and so little quality to express.
> >
> > That needs to change.
> >
> > From: Dan Glover
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> > To: ***@moqtalk.org
> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >
> > Hi Adrie,
> > Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
> >> the
> >> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
> >> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
> >> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for
> them,and
> >> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
> >> emerge?......,
> >>
> >> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
> >> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
> >> everything is anew every day.
> >>
> >> Adrie
>
>
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>



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[Dan Glover]

Hi Adrie,

I don't think avoidance comes into play so far as purpose except in
the contrary. What I mean is that when money and work become the
purpose we are avoiding what is true and real and meaningful in life.
There is nothing fanciful about purpose nor does a person have to be
exceptionally intelligent to discover it.

Yes. Framing. But isn't framing more a matter of cultural patterns
constraining our lives into what others believe is important? For
example, perhaps a girl comes of age dreaming of becoming an actor.
But because her family sees that choice as fanciful they steer her,
frame her, into becoming a good girl who does as others want. A girl
who doesn't follow her heart. She spends her life unhappily married
and when her children are born she repeats the process by instilling
in them the same shallow thinking.

Most would agree how a student doing exceptional work is deserving of
a better grade than those doing less. In the same fashion, an employee
doing exceptional work would be seen as deserving better pay than
those doing less. In this fashion, people are indoctrinated into a
culture of earning. Those who for perhaps reasons of their own go on
to fail at the game are denounced as losers, those back of the class
kids for who Robert Pirsig felt such affinity.

I am sorry to hear of your health issues, Adrie. And I hope Cloud
Atlas provides you with as much enjoyment as it did me.

Thank you,

Dan

On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi , Dan,all..
>
> Money and work are mountains we all have to climb, there would be no decent
> or valid point to make, when at the same time trying to avoid to climb and
> willing to be at the summit in the same framing.
> I like the word 'framing'.
> It is never only the money or the work that is framing us in the job or in
> our lives,the frame contains lots of components that are even so determinant
> for our existence...,
> Social patterns.Geografical patterns.Political patterns.'Mother the Wife'.
> Distances.Oceans .
> I need no fantasy or bright brain to know that i'll have commitments other
> than work and money related.It makes a very big difference for me , now that
> i'm retired.The frame itself becomes lesser important.But it is never
> absent.
>
> Reviewing what you and Wes wrote, i can say that some possibilities
> are very easyly overlooked.It comes along with the the frame to do so.
> The mechanisms are repeated. If one American buys tannerite to blow up
> some rodents ,other fellow Americans will follow his example and blow up
> some pigeons with tannerite.But of course this is a simplified example to
> point to something.Do not buy tannerite.Do not blow up rodents,youtube is
> full of it.......
>
> There are ways to step out of the frame that is yours and is framing you
> where you are,without the need to leave it.Start writing. Keep on
> writing,and start travelling the world around with some magic stroke's on
> your keyboard
> It does not have to be non-fiction.Fiction is allowed.
> Allocate your soul at the helm of your computer and write about the events
> you see,the toughts you have,...........The list is endless.
>
> Sorry for this short reading and write back to you Dan, but i was in the
> Hospital this week for epidural injections in my neck and spinal cord.
> Had to take it real easy.Still a very numb feeling in my arms and thumbs
> and shoulders.Very numb and very annoying.
> The Cloud Atlas book arrived today.I can start reading it, maybe i will
> take it with me to Turkey next week,i have a 10 day's holliday.I go to
> Bodrum.
> Look around in Erdoganistan...(pun), That will give me some time to read.
>
> Welcome Andrew and Wes, btw.Feel free to interact anyway.
> And no, English is not my language.I'm a Belgian.
>
> Adrie
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2017-08-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> Andrew, all,
>>
>> If money were no object, what would you do?
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>> >
>> > Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect
>> with and venture into that quality connection.
>> >
>> > Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw
>> it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the last
>> 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression
>> across the world.
>> >
>> > We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing,
>> strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to
>> express our quality and so little quality to express.
>> >
>> > That needs to change.
>> >
>> > From: Dan Glover
>> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> > To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>> >
>> > Hi Adrie,
>> > Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's nest in
>> >> the
>> >> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose this
>> >> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>> >> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for
>> them,and
>> >> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>> >> emerge?......,
>> >>
>> >> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>> >> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>> >> everything is anew every day.
>> >>
>> >> Adrie
>>
>>
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>
>
>
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Hi Dan,...all.

I took a sneak peak diagonal reading preview on Cloud Atlas yesterday,and i
have to agree with you that we will have much to discuss about it , if you
like.
It is too early for me to formulate a solid judgement about the book,but
the bulk of what i read so far is of very high literary quality.
The letters from Zedelgem instances are absolute top level, and very
complex in their carefully constructed build-up.I have my doubts on the
sixth story as i did not found its concluding meanig yet,but i will dig in
further.
The fifth story is a non-event.Counting sheeps.Nothing else.

But the 'Zedelghem 'entity, as for locality,caracters and embedded
history;.....
wow! Stuff to study for quite some time.Learnig grounds for the writers of
tomorrow.

As i was thinking about your questions about purpose and goal, a book on
the shelf here is a biography about Harry Mulish named 'Zijn Eigen Land' or
translated, 'His Own Country' I have no knowledge of a translated form in
English, but it will probably exist as Mulish is one of the greatest
,nearly everything he wrote was translated or is in the proces.
The book is a chronicle of his notes that he left in his office when he
died.

There are several things in it that i like to offer along with the
discussing of
Cloud Atlas.btw Andrew, the phrase "Is this guy fired yet" would be a good
booktitle.Or a chapter.If i'm back from Turkey we will have a rewind of
that.


Adrie



2017-08-29 8:21 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:

> Hi Adrie,
>
> I don't think avoidance comes into play so far as purpose except in
> the contrary. What I mean is that when money and work become the
> purpose we are avoiding what is true and real and meaningful in life.
> There is nothing fanciful about purpose nor does a person have to be
> exceptionally intelligent to discover it.
>
> Yes. Framing. But isn't framing more a matter of cultural patterns
> constraining our lives into what others believe is important? For
> example, perhaps a girl comes of age dreaming of becoming an actor.
> But because her family sees that choice as fanciful they steer her,
> frame her, into becoming a good girl who does as others want. A girl
> who doesn't follow her heart. She spends her life unhappily married
> and when her children are born she repeats the process by instilling
> in them the same shallow thinking.
>
> Most would agree how a student doing exceptional work is deserving of
> a better grade than those doing less. In the same fashion, an employee
> doing exceptional work would be seen as deserving better pay than
> those doing less. In this fashion, people are indoctrinated into a
> culture of earning. Those who for perhaps reasons of their own go on
> to fail at the game are denounced as losers, those back of the class
> kids for who Robert Pirsig felt such affinity.
>
> I am sorry to hear of your health issues, Adrie. And I hope Cloud
> Atlas provides you with as much enjoyment as it did me.
>
> Thank you,
>
> Dan
>
> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi , Dan,all..
> >
> > Money and work are mountains we all have to climb, there would be no
> decent
> > or valid point to make, when at the same time trying to avoid to climb
> and
> > willing to be at the summit in the same framing.
> > I like the word 'framing'.
> > It is never only the money or the work that is framing us in the job or
> in
> > our lives,the frame contains lots of components that are even so
> determinant
> > for our existence...,
> > Social patterns.Geografical patterns.Political patterns.'Mother the
> Wife'.
> > Distances.Oceans .
> > I need no fantasy or bright brain to know that i'll have commitments
> other
> > than work and money related.It makes a very big difference for me , now
> that
> > i'm retired.The frame itself becomes lesser important.But it is never
> > absent.
> >
> > Reviewing what you and Wes wrote, i can say that some possibilities
> > are very easyly overlooked.It comes along with the the frame to do so.
> > The mechanisms are repeated. If one American buys tannerite to blow up
> > some rodents ,other fellow Americans will follow his example and blow up
> > some pigeons with tannerite.But of course this is a simplified example to
> > point to something.Do not buy tannerite.Do not blow up rodents,youtube is
> > full of it.......
> >
> > There are ways to step out of the frame that is yours and is framing you
> > where you are,without the need to leave it.Start writing. Keep on
> > writing,and start travelling the world around with some magic stroke's on
> > your keyboard
> > It does not have to be non-fiction.Fiction is allowed.
> > Allocate your soul at the helm of your computer and write about the
> events
> > you see,the toughts you have,...........The list is endless.
> >
> > Sorry for this short reading and write back to you Dan, but i was in the
> > Hospital this week for epidural injections in my neck and spinal cord.
> > Had to take it real easy.Still a very numb feeling in my arms and thumbs
> > and shoulders.Very numb and very annoying.
> > The Cloud Atlas book arrived today.I can start reading it, maybe i will
> > take it with me to Turkey next week,i have a 10 day's holliday.I go to
> > Bodrum.
> > Look around in Erdoganistan...(pun), That will give me some time to read.
> >
> > Welcome Andrew and Wes, btw.Feel free to interact anyway.
> > And no, English is not my language.I'm a Belgian.
> >
> > Adrie
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 2017-08-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Andrew, all,
> >>
> >> If money were no object, what would you do?
> >>
> >> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> > Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
> >> >
> >> > Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect
> >> with and venture into that quality connection.
> >> >
> >> > Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw
> >> it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the
> last
> >> 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression
> >> across the world.
> >> >
> >> > We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing,
> >> strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to
> >> express our quality and so little quality to express.
> >> >
> >> > That needs to change.
> >> >
> >> > From: Dan Glover
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> >> > To: ***@moqtalk.org
> >> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >> >
> >> > Hi Adrie,
> >> > Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> >> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's
> nest in
> >> >> the
> >> >> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose
> this
> >> >> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
> >> >> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for
> >> them,and
> >> >> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
> >> >> emerge?......,
> >> >>
> >> >> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
> >> >> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
> >> >> everything is anew every day.
> >> >>
> >> >> Adrie
> >>
> >>
> >> http://www.danglover.com
> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> >> Archives:
> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > parser
> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> > Archives:
> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.danglover.com
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> Archives:
> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>



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[Dan Glover]

Hi Adrie,

I found the stories of Cloud Atlas to be interlocking in nature. In
fact it was quite a joy for me to discover old characters from some of
his other novels inhabiting the book. And I shouldn't be too quick to
dismiss the fifth story. The novel would not work if not for that.

I searched for the work of Harry Mulish but apparently the book you
mention hasn't been translated into English as of yet.

Thanks, Adrie!

On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 4:16 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Dan,...all.
>
> I took a sneak peak diagonal reading preview on Cloud Atlas yesterday,and i
> have to agree with you that we will have much to discuss about it , if you
> like.
> It is too early for me to formulate a solid judgement about the book,but
> the bulk of what i read so far is of very high literary quality.
> The letters from Zedelgem instances are absolute top level, and very
> complex in their carefully constructed build-up.I have my doubts on the
> sixth story as i did not found its concluding meanig yet,but i will dig in
> further.
> The fifth story is a non-event.Counting sheeps.Nothing else.
>
> But the 'Zedelghem 'entity, as for locality,caracters and embedded
> history;.....
> wow! Stuff to study for quite some time.Learnig grounds for the writers of
> tomorrow.
>
> As i was thinking about your questions about purpose and goal, a book on
> the shelf here is a biography about Harry Mulish named 'Zijn Eigen Land' or
> translated, 'His Own Country' I have no knowledge of a translated form in
> English, but it will probably exist as Mulish is one of the greatest
> ,nearly everything he wrote was translated or is in the proces.
> The book is a chronicle of his notes that he left in his office when he
> died.
>
> There are several things in it that i like to offer along with the
> discussing of
> Cloud Atlas.btw Andrew, the phrase "Is this guy fired yet" would be a good
> booktitle.Or a chapter.If i'm back from Turkey we will have a rewind of
> that.
>
>
> Adrie
>
>
>
> 2017-08-29 8:21 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
>
>> Hi Adrie,
>>
>> I don't think avoidance comes into play so far as purpose except in
>> the contrary. What I mean is that when money and work become the
>> purpose we are avoiding what is true and real and meaningful in life.
>> There is nothing fanciful about purpose nor does a person have to be
>> exceptionally intelligent to discover it.
>>
>> Yes. Framing. But isn't framing more a matter of cultural patterns
>> constraining our lives into what others believe is important? For
>> example, perhaps a girl comes of age dreaming of becoming an actor.
>> But because her family sees that choice as fanciful they steer her,
>> frame her, into becoming a good girl who does as others want. A girl
>> who doesn't follow her heart. She spends her life unhappily married
>> and when her children are born she repeats the process by instilling
>> in them the same shallow thinking.
>>
>> Most would agree how a student doing exceptional work is deserving of
>> a better grade than those doing less. In the same fashion, an employee
>> doing exceptional work would be seen as deserving better pay than
>> those doing less. In this fashion, people are indoctrinated into a
>> culture of earning. Those who for perhaps reasons of their own go on
>> to fail at the game are denounced as losers, those back of the class
>> kids for who Robert Pirsig felt such affinity.
>>
>> I am sorry to hear of your health issues, Adrie. And I hope Cloud
>> Atlas provides you with as much enjoyment as it did me.
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi , Dan,all..
>> >
>> > Money and work are mountains we all have to climb, there would be no
>> decent
>> > or valid point to make, when at the same time trying to avoid to climb
>> and
>> > willing to be at the summit in the same framing.
>> > I like the word 'framing'.
>> > It is never only the money or the work that is framing us in the job or
>> in
>> > our lives,the frame contains lots of components that are even so
>> determinant
>> > for our existence...,
>> > Social patterns.Geografical patterns.Political patterns.'Mother the
>> Wife'.
>> > Distances.Oceans .
>> > I need no fantasy or bright brain to know that i'll have commitments
>> other
>> > than work and money related.It makes a very big difference for me , now
>> that
>> > i'm retired.The frame itself becomes lesser important.But it is never
>> > absent.
>> >
>> > Reviewing what you and Wes wrote, i can say that some possibilities
>> > are very easyly overlooked.It comes along with the the frame to do so.
>> > The mechanisms are repeated. If one American buys tannerite to blow up
>> > some rodents ,other fellow Americans will follow his example and blow up
>> > some pigeons with tannerite.But of course this is a simplified example to
>> > point to something.Do not buy tannerite.Do not blow up rodents,youtube is
>> > full of it.......
>> >
>> > There are ways to step out of the frame that is yours and is framing you
>> > where you are,without the need to leave it.Start writing. Keep on
>> > writing,and start travelling the world around with some magic stroke's on
>> > your keyboard
>> > It does not have to be non-fiction.Fiction is allowed.
>> > Allocate your soul at the helm of your computer and write about the
>> events
>> > you see,the toughts you have,...........The list is endless.
>> >
>> > Sorry for this short reading and write back to you Dan, but i was in the
>> > Hospital this week for epidural injections in my neck and spinal cord.
>> > Had to take it real easy.Still a very numb feeling in my arms and thumbs
>> > and shoulders.Very numb and very annoying.
>> > The Cloud Atlas book arrived today.I can start reading it, maybe i will
>> > take it with me to Turkey next week,i have a 10 day's holliday.I go to
>> > Bodrum.
>> > Look around in Erdoganistan...(pun), That will give me some time to read.
>> >
>> > Welcome Andrew and Wes, btw.Feel free to interact anyway.
>> > And no, English is not my language.I'm a Belgian.
>> >
>> > Adrie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2017-08-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> >> Andrew, all,
>> >>
>> >> If money were no object, what would you do?
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >> > Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>> >> >
>> >> > Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely connect
>> >> with and venture into that quality connection.
>> >> >
>> >> > Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever saw
>> >> it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over the
>> last
>> >> 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression
>> >> across the world.
>> >> >
>> >> > We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer, singing,
>> >> strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many ways to
>> >> express our quality and so little quality to express.
>> >> >
>> >> > That needs to change.
>> >> >
>> >> > From: Dan Glover
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> >> > To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> >> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi Adrie,
>> >> > Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's
>> nest in
>> >> >> the
>> >> >> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people loose
>> this
>> >> >> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>> >> >> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for
>> >> them,and
>> >> >> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>> >> >> emerge?......,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to stop
>> >> >> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again, as if
>> >> >> everything is anew every day.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Adrie
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://www.danglover.com
>> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> >> Archives:
>> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > parser
>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> > Archives:
>> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> http://www.danglover.com
>> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> Archives:
>> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>>
>
>
>
> --
> parser
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[Adrie Kintziger]

Bi Dan,
I have WiFi in the hotel here in Bodrum,and additionally to iT, i have
acces to a little library here,,so i can read your mail and Study the book
at the same time from the pool here!...Nice ,looking at the Knights
Hostpittaler castle over the bay and the yachties boats between the hotel
and me i''m Reading 'Inferno' by Dan Brown,and Cloud Atlas, to compare Some
issue's:this you Can find and acces on the web' Inferno, prb as a pdf for
students!. Please read of you Can the chapterand chapters along chapt
84'concerning the citerns in the Hagia Sophia!. THere are Some historical
and geographical component i would-be like to discussie with you. Yeah,
Mulish i,m aware of iT today, the latest biography is not translated in
English.But the good News is,you do not have to read iT, only the first two
sentences and the last are important for us and i Can translate.
'This desk is my country,iT is my island,the only country i Can call
myself a nationalist for,andtheonly country i,M willing to die for,
Writing About huis desk. Pls forgive me thetypo,s the machine is fast
switching to Turkish from Dutch, and doubting between Flamish and English
spellingcheck from this location.I'm not drunk.,.! ADrie

Op zaterdag 2 september 2017 heeft Dan Glover <***@gmail.com
<javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','***@gmail.com');>> het volgende
geschreven:

> Hi Adrie,
>
> I found the stories of Cloud Atlas to be interlocking in nature. In
> fact it was quite a joy for me to discover old characters from some of
> his other novels inhabiting the book. And I shouldn't be too quick to
> dismiss the fifth story. The novel would not work if not for that.
>
> I searched for the work of Harry Mulish but apparently the book you
> mention hasn't been translated into English as of yet.
>
> Thanks, Adrie!
>
> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 4:16 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Hi Dan,...all.
> >
> > I took a sneak peak diagonal reading preview on Cloud Atlas
> yesterday,and i
> > have to agree with you that we will have much to discuss about it , if
> you
> > like.
> > It is too early for me to formulate a solid judgement about the book,but
> > the bulk of what i read so far is of very high literary quality.
> > The letters from Zedelgem instances are absolute top level, and very
> > complex in their carefully constructed build-up.I have my doubts on the
> > sixth story as i did not found its concluding meanig yet,but i will dig
> in
> > further.
> > The fifth story is a non-event.Counting sheeps.Nothing else.
> >
> > But the 'Zedelghem 'entity, as for locality,caracters and embedded
> > history;.....
> > wow! Stuff to study for quite some time.Learnig grounds for the writers
> of
> > tomorrow.
> >
> > As i was thinking about your questions about purpose and goal, a book on
> > the shelf here is a biography about Harry Mulish named 'Zijn Eigen Land'
> or
> > translated, 'His Own Country' I have no knowledge of a translated form in
> > English, but it will probably exist as Mulish is one of the greatest
> > ,nearly everything he wrote was translated or is in the proces.
> > The book is a chronicle of his notes that he left in his office when he
> > died.
> >
> > There are several things in it that i like to offer along with the
> > discussing of
> > Cloud Atlas.btw Andrew, the phrase "Is this guy fired yet" would be a
> good
> > booktitle.Or a chapter.If i'm back from Turkey we will have a rewind of
> > that.
> >
> >
> > Adrie
> >
> >
> >
> > 2017-08-29 8:21 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
> >
> >> Hi Adrie,
> >>
> >> I don't think avoidance comes into play so far as purpose except in
> >> the contrary. What I mean is that when money and work become the
> >> purpose we are avoiding what is true and real and meaningful in life.
> >> There is nothing fanciful about purpose nor does a person have to be
> >> exceptionally intelligent to discover it.
> >>
> >> Yes. Framing. But isn't framing more a matter of cultural patterns
> >> constraining our lives into what others believe is important? For
> >> example, perhaps a girl comes of age dreaming of becoming an actor.
> >> But because her family sees that choice as fanciful they steer her,
> >> frame her, into becoming a good girl who does as others want. A girl
> >> who doesn't follow her heart. She spends her life unhappily married
> >> and when her children are born she repeats the process by instilling
> >> in them the same shallow thinking.
> >>
> >> Most would agree how a student doing exceptional work is deserving of
> >> a better grade than those doing less. In the same fashion, an employee
> >> doing exceptional work would be seen as deserving better pay than
> >> those doing less. In this fashion, people are indoctrinated into a
> >> culture of earning. Those who for perhaps reasons of their own go on
> >> to fail at the game are denounced as losers, those back of the class
> >> kids for who Robert Pirsig felt such affinity.
> >>
> >> I am sorry to hear of your health issues, Adrie. And I hope Cloud
> >> Atlas provides you with as much enjoyment as it did me.
> >>
> >> Thank you,
> >>
> >> Dan
> >>
> >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> > Hi , Dan,all..
> >> >
> >> > Money and work are mountains we all have to climb, there would be no
> >> decent
> >> > or valid point to make, when at the same time trying to avoid to climb
> >> and
> >> > willing to be at the summit in the same framing.
> >> > I like the word 'framing'.
> >> > It is never only the money or the work that is framing us in the job
> or
> >> in
> >> > our lives,the frame contains lots of components that are even so
> >> determinant
> >> > for our existence...,
> >> > Social patterns.Geografical patterns.Political patterns.'Mother the
> >> Wife'.
> >> > Distances.Oceans .
> >> > I need no fantasy or bright brain to know that i'll have commitments
> >> other
> >> > than work and money related.It makes a very big difference for me ,
> now
> >> that
> >> > i'm retired.The frame itself becomes lesser important.But it is never
> >> > absent.
> >> >
> >> > Reviewing what you and Wes wrote, i can say that some possibilities
> >> > are very easyly overlooked.It comes along with the the frame to do
> so.
> >> > The mechanisms are repeated. If one American buys tannerite to blow up
> >> > some rodents ,other fellow Americans will follow his example and blow
> up
> >> > some pigeons with tannerite.But of course this is a simplified
> example to
> >> > point to something.Do not buy tannerite.Do not blow up
> rodents,youtube is
> >> > full of it.......
> >> >
> >> > There are ways to step out of the frame that is yours and is framing
> you
> >> > where you are,without the need to leave it.Start writing. Keep on
> >> > writing,and start travelling the world around with some magic
> stroke's on
> >> > your keyboard
> >> > It does not have to be non-fiction.Fiction is allowed.
> >> > Allocate your soul at the helm of your computer and write about the
> >> events
> >> > you see,the toughts you have,...........The list is endless.
> >> >
> >> > Sorry for this short reading and write back to you Dan, but i was in
> the
> >> > Hospital this week for epidural injections in my neck and spinal cord.
> >> > Had to take it real easy.Still a very numb feeling in my arms and
> thumbs
> >> > and shoulders.Very numb and very annoying.
> >> > The Cloud Atlas book arrived today.I can start reading it, maybe i
> will
> >> > take it with me to Turkey next week,i have a 10 day's holliday.I go to
> >> > Bodrum.
> >> > Look around in Erdoganistan...(pun), That will give me some time to
> read.
> >> >
> >> > Welcome Andrew and Wes, btw.Feel free to interact anyway.
> >> > And no, English is not my language.I'm a Belgian.
> >> >
> >> > Adrie
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > 2017-08-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
> >> >
> >> >> Andrew, all,
> >> >>
> >> >> If money were no object, what would you do?
> >> >>
> >> >> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >> >> > Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely
> connect
> >> >> with and venture into that quality connection.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever
> saw
> >> >> it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over
> the
> >> last
> >> >> 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression
> >> >> across the world.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer,
> singing,
> >> >> strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many
> ways to
> >> >> express our quality and so little quality to express.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > That needs to change.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > From: Dan Glover
> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
> >> >> > To: ***@moqtalk.org
> >> >> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
> >> >> >
> >> >> > Hi Adrie,
> >> >> > Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <
> ***@gmail.com
> >> >
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >> >> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's
> >> nest in
> >> >> >> the
> >> >> >> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people
> loose
> >> this
> >> >> >> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
> >> >> >> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for
> >> >> them,and
> >> >> >> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
> >> >> >> emerge?......,
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to
> stop
> >> >> >> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again,
> as if
> >> >> >> everything is anew every day.
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> Adrie
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> http://www.danglover.com
> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
> >> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
> >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
> >> >> Archives:
> >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
> >> >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > parser
> >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
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> >> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
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> >>
> >
> >
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[Dan Glover]

Hi Adrie,

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bi Dan,
> I have WiFi in the hotel here in Bodrum,and additionally to iT, i have
> acces to a little library here,,so i can read your mail and Study the book
> at the same time from the pool here!...Nice ,looking at the Knights
> Hostpittaler castle over the bay and the yachties boats between the hotel
> and me i''m Reading 'Inferno' by Dan Brown,and Cloud Atlas, to compare Some
> issue's:this you Can find and acces on the web' Inferno, prb as a pdf for
> students!. Please read of you Can the chapterand chapters along chapt
> 84'concerning the citerns in the Hagia Sophia!. THere are Some historical
> and geographical component i would-be like to discussie with you. Yeah,
> Mulish i,m aware of iT today, the latest biography is not translated in
> English.But the good News is,you do not have to read iT, only the first two
> sentences and the last are important for us and i Can translate.
> 'This desk is my country,iT is my island,the only country i Can call
> myself a nationalist for,andtheonly country i,M willing to die for,
> Writing About huis desk. Pls forgive me thetypo,s the machine is fast
> switching to Turkish from Dutch, and doubting between Flamish and English
> spellingcheck from this location.I'm not drunk.,.! ADrie
>
> Op zaterdag 2 september 2017 heeft Dan Glover <***@gmail.com
> <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','***@gmail.com');>> het volgende
> geschreven:
>
>> Hi Adrie,
>>
>> I found the stories of Cloud Atlas to be interlocking in nature. In
>> fact it was quite a joy for me to discover old characters from some of
>> his other novels inhabiting the book. And I shouldn't be too quick to
>> dismiss the fifth story. The novel would not work if not for that.
>>
>> I searched for the work of Harry Mulish but apparently the book you
>> mention hasn't been translated into English as of yet.
>>
>> Thanks, Adrie!
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 29, 2017 at 4:16 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> > Hi Dan,...all.
>> >
>> > I took a sneak peak diagonal reading preview on Cloud Atlas
>> yesterday,and i
>> > have to agree with you that we will have much to discuss about it , if
>> you
>> > like.
>> > It is too early for me to formulate a solid judgement about the book,but
>> > the bulk of what i read so far is of very high literary quality.
>> > The letters from Zedelgem instances are absolute top level, and very
>> > complex in their carefully constructed build-up.I have my doubts on the
>> > sixth story as i did not found its concluding meanig yet,but i will dig
>> in
>> > further.
>> > The fifth story is a non-event.Counting sheeps.Nothing else.
>> >
>> > But the 'Zedelghem 'entity, as for locality,caracters and embedded
>> > history;.....
>> > wow! Stuff to study for quite some time.Learnig grounds for the writers
>> of
>> > tomorrow.
>> >
>> > As i was thinking about your questions about purpose and goal, a book on
>> > the shelf here is a biography about Harry Mulish named 'Zijn Eigen Land'
>> or
>> > translated, 'His Own Country' I have no knowledge of a translated form in
>> > English, but it will probably exist as Mulish is one of the greatest
>> > ,nearly everything he wrote was translated or is in the proces.
>> > The book is a chronicle of his notes that he left in his office when he
>> > died.
>> >
>> > There are several things in it that i like to offer along with the
>> > discussing of
>> > Cloud Atlas.btw Andrew, the phrase "Is this guy fired yet" would be a
>> good
>> > booktitle.Or a chapter.If i'm back from Turkey we will have a rewind of
>> > that.
>> >
>> >
>> > Adrie
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > 2017-08-29 8:21 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
>> >
>> >> Hi Adrie,
>> >>
>> >> I don't think avoidance comes into play so far as purpose except in
>> >> the contrary. What I mean is that when money and work become the
>> >> purpose we are avoiding what is true and real and meaningful in life.
>> >> There is nothing fanciful about purpose nor does a person have to be
>> >> exceptionally intelligent to discover it.
>> >>
>> >> Yes. Framing. But isn't framing more a matter of cultural patterns
>> >> constraining our lives into what others believe is important? For
>> >> example, perhaps a girl comes of age dreaming of becoming an actor.
>> >> But because her family sees that choice as fanciful they steer her,
>> >> frame her, into becoming a good girl who does as others want. A girl
>> >> who doesn't follow her heart. She spends her life unhappily married
>> >> and when her children are born she repeats the process by instilling
>> >> in them the same shallow thinking.
>> >>
>> >> Most would agree how a student doing exceptional work is deserving of
>> >> a better grade than those doing less. In the same fashion, an employee
>> >> doing exceptional work would be seen as deserving better pay than
>> >> those doing less. In this fashion, people are indoctrinated into a
>> >> culture of earning. Those who for perhaps reasons of their own go on
>> >> to fail at the game are denounced as losers, those back of the class
>> >> kids for who Robert Pirsig felt such affinity.
>> >>
>> >> I am sorry to hear of your health issues, Adrie. And I hope Cloud
>> >> Atlas provides you with as much enjoyment as it did me.
>> >>
>> >> Thank you,
>> >>
>> >> Dan
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Aug 25, 2017 at 11:11 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > Hi , Dan,all..
>> >> >
>> >> > Money and work are mountains we all have to climb, there would be no
>> >> decent
>> >> > or valid point to make, when at the same time trying to avoid to climb
>> >> and
>> >> > willing to be at the summit in the same framing.
>> >> > I like the word 'framing'.
>> >> > It is never only the money or the work that is framing us in the job
>> or
>> >> in
>> >> > our lives,the frame contains lots of components that are even so
>> >> determinant
>> >> > for our existence...,
>> >> > Social patterns.Geografical patterns.Political patterns.'Mother the
>> >> Wife'.
>> >> > Distances.Oceans .
>> >> > I need no fantasy or bright brain to know that i'll have commitments
>> >> other
>> >> > than work and money related.It makes a very big difference for me ,
>> now
>> >> that
>> >> > i'm retired.The frame itself becomes lesser important.But it is never
>> >> > absent.
>> >> >
>> >> > Reviewing what you and Wes wrote, i can say that some possibilities
>> >> > are very easyly overlooked.It comes along with the the frame to do
>> so.
>> >> > The mechanisms are repeated. If one American buys tannerite to blow up
>> >> > some rodents ,other fellow Americans will follow his example and blow
>> up
>> >> > some pigeons with tannerite.But of course this is a simplified
>> example to
>> >> > point to something.Do not buy tannerite.Do not blow up
>> rodents,youtube is
>> >> > full of it.......
>> >> >
>> >> > There are ways to step out of the frame that is yours and is framing
>> you
>> >> > where you are,without the need to leave it.Start writing. Keep on
>> >> > writing,and start travelling the world around with some magic
>> stroke's on
>> >> > your keyboard
>> >> > It does not have to be non-fiction.Fiction is allowed.
>> >> > Allocate your soul at the helm of your computer and write about the
>> >> events
>> >> > you see,the toughts you have,...........The list is endless.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sorry for this short reading and write back to you Dan, but i was in
>> the
>> >> > Hospital this week for epidural injections in my neck and spinal cord.
>> >> > Had to take it real easy.Still a very numb feeling in my arms and
>> thumbs
>> >> > and shoulders.Very numb and very annoying.
>> >> > The Cloud Atlas book arrived today.I can start reading it, maybe i
>> will
>> >> > take it with me to Turkey next week,i have a 10 day's holliday.I go to
>> >> > Bodrum.
>> >> > Look around in Erdoganistan...(pun), That will give me some time to
>> read.
>> >> >
>> >> > Welcome Andrew and Wes, btw.Feel free to interact anyway.
>> >> > And no, English is not my language.I'm a Belgian.
>> >> >
>> >> > Adrie
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > 2017-08-25 6:08 GMT+02:00 Dan Glover <***@gmail.com>:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Andrew, all,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> If money were no object, what would you do?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 6:48 PM, Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >> > Maybe one way to spread quality is to imbue it in what we do?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Spend our precious hours finding those things that we uniquely
>> connect
>> >> >> with and venture into that quality connection.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Has anyone watched Jiro Dreams of Sushi? That’s quality if I ever
>> saw
>> >> >> it. It’s as if a low thunderous roar of quality was building over
>> the
>> >> last
>> >> >> 70 years of his life and once it crested it left a lasting impression
>> >> >> across the world.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > We need more of that. It could be anything, sushi, soccer,
>> singing,
>> >> >> strawberry jam. The paradox of our time is that we have so many
>> ways to
>> >> >> express our quality and so little quality to express.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > That needs to change.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > From: Dan Glover
>> >> >> > Sent: Wednesday, August 23, 2017 11:19 PM
>> >> >> > To: ***@moqtalk.org
>> >> >> > Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > Hi Adrie,
>> >> >> > Yes, new every day. I like that. Thanks, Adrie!
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 3:18 AM, Adrie Kintziger <
>> ***@gmail.com
>> >> >
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >> >> Can we still be surprised and feel awe when we discover a bird's
>> >> nest in
>> >> >> >> the
>> >> >> >> shrubs or a frog in the polder?,we should be!,....many people
>> loose
>> >> this
>> >> >> >> ability early in life.We can ask ourselves,...
>> >> >> >> Did the emotional/intellectual adaptive filter close too early for
>> >> >> them,and
>> >> >> >> did the pattern dissolve itself to give way for other patterns to
>> >> >> >> emerge?......,
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Sometimes a bit strange that i will take a philosopher stance to
>> stop
>> >> >> >> thinking about these things, and go back to expiriencing again,
>> as if
>> >> >> >> everything is anew every day.
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> Adrie
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >> http://www.danglover.com
>> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> >> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> >> >> Archives:
>> >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> >> >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > parser
>> >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
>> >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
>> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
>> >> > Archives:
>> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
>> >> > http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> http://www.danglover.com
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>> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
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>> >> Archives:
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>> >> http://moq.org/md/archives.html
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
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>>
>>
>>
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[Dan Glover]

Hi Adrie,

I found the PDF of Inferno. Thank you for recommending it. Sounds like
a holiday to me! Enjoy!

On Sat, Sep 2, 2017 at 7:01 AM, Adrie Kintziger <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> Bi Dan,
> I have WiFi in the hotel here in Bodrum,and additionally to iT, i have
> acces to a little library here,,so i can read your mail and Study the book
> at the same time from the pool here!...Nice ,looking at the Knights
> Hostpittaler castle over the bay and the yachties boats between the hotel
> and me i''m Reading 'Inferno' by Dan Brown,and Cloud Atlas, to compare Some
> issue's:this you Can find and acces on the web' Inferno, prb as a pdf for
> students!. Please read of you Can the chapterand chapters along chapt
> 84'concerning the citerns in the Hagia Sophia!. THere are Some historical
> and geographical component i would-be like to discussie with you. Yeah,
> Mulish i,m aware of iT today, the latest biography is not translated in
> English.But the good News is,you do not have to read iT, only the first two
> sentences and the last are important for us and i Can translate.
> 'This desk is my country,iT is my island,the only country i Can call
> myself a nationalist for,andtheonly country i,M willing to die for,
> Writing About huis desk. Pls forgive me thetypo,s the machine is fast
> switching to Turkish from Dutch, and doubting between Flamish and English
> spellingcheck from this location.I'm not drunk.,.! ADrie
>
>

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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan;

Thanks for your input. I agree information and knowledge are not the same thing. People had the information on an eclipse but had no knowledge of it. I I was working and not in an area of totality but made a pinhole viewer, from two sheets of paper and saw the quarter moon shape. The latitude and longitude where I was at only 70% covered , but it was still interesting to see.

The philosophers, Montaigne, Bacon and Locke agreed that any attempts to transmit information derived from other people was just a rumor, and does not constitute knowledge unless it has been tested by personal experience. What is the information or the current narrative? Good quality health care, however medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the US, behind heart disease and cancer. So what does it mean an organization states they have good quality health care when it is a systemic problem. We have the latest narrative or information about health care but no knowledge of that.

We have the latest information or narrative from societies leaders, such as politicians and corporate upper management, but do we have knowledge of what is actually happening? Even though this static pattern of healthcare does have some quality in it, there has to be some dynamic quality, or change to reduce the death rate.






From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 1:00:04 AM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi guys,

Great discussion!

Hey. Just an aside. Maybe. But maybe not. I just got back from viewing
the eclipse. First time I ever've seen totality. Had to check what I
was drinking for if someone'd slipped LSD into it or maybe diced up
psilocybin mushrooms on that breakfast burrito I had earlier. Took off
work and drove 400 miles for a totality lasting 2 minutes 40 seconds
and I'd do it again tomorrow were there another. Mindblowing.
Completely mindblowing.

See, intellectually I knew exactly what an eclipse is. I knew what to
expect. But to witness that mofo... that was an experience. People've
asked me oh did it get dark and did you see stars and did the crickets
start into chirping and yes to all but Jesus God there were people
driving past me at the same moment the moon was blocking out the sun
and their headlights were on and but they never even pulled over to
look. And they were right there. Right there.

One of the people I was with said hey it's because we're in Missouri.
And he wasn't joking. More, though, leading up to the eclipse I kept
getting nasty messages on Facebook saying: "am I the only one not
going to the eclipse?" And people are agreeing. Oh yeah. Big waste of
time, that. I'm not going. As if it is somehow okay to be jaded. No.
Expected. How one of the wonders of the world is right there above our
heads and we're too busy or too adultish or too know-it-all to take
the time and watch and those of us who do revel in the experience are
dullishly off-kilter, worthy of putdowns.

I'm not much into politics. The wheel turns. Now is the time for
stupid people to rule. That'll pass as it always does. If you accept
the basic tenet of the MOQ, that quality and morality are identical,
then you might also see how what's better is driving evolution on all
four levels. And what's better doesn't necessarily mean intellect
always rules. I read this article about how birds what live along
roadways are evolving shorter wingspans. That doesn't presuppose as
some would have it an intelligent being overseeing such happenings nor
is it a matter of chance. Rather, birds with long wingspans are unable
to fly away quickly enough and are killed by cars thus unable to
propagate. Short wings are better.

There are so many ah ha moments in life which we gloss over.
Especially should things not fit with our preconceived notion of the
world and our place in it. If the MOQ teaches us anything, it should
be to wake up. To be there. To give our attention to what is right in
front of us instead of forever planning for tomorrow.

Anyway...


On Mon, Aug 21, 2017 at 8:26 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> People, who ask a question why things are the way they are? Struggle with it then spend a lot of time trying to find what is wrong and try to find a solution are not the large population.
> Our thinking and upper managers (those in organizations including government) is clouded because we/they assert to authority, muddled by self importance, self interest, greed, jealousies, anxiety, hate and revenge.
> The scientific way that Pirsig described. It's also Shewharts and Demings way to build quality into a society, culture or system. First you have to see that something is wrong, and then come up with a hypothesis on why it is wrong. Then you plan how to fix it, carry out the fix, and study it after to see what happens, then you take action either way on whether it worked or not. They called it Plan, Do, Study and Act PDSA.
>
> Our basic educational systems, have not taught critical thinking, normally it is memorize this, he is an approved smart guy , and we have approved him.
>
> We are biological creatures and trained well by those who run the system, we are trained not to think. Nature creates quality and morality into a biological being. If I suffer an injury my blood clots at the source of the injury white blood cells standby to attack any bacteria.
> That's quality, and it would be immoral if someone was to bleed out or bacteria invade his body to destroy him. Bacteria are a lower form of life it
> would not be moral if a lower form of life could kill a higher form so easily.
>
> Intellectuals have managed to change society. African Americans were given the right to vote, by an intellectual struggle. There is a long list of other victories.
>
> A few years back It became known that the American congress had passed over 1500 policies and the majority of these had benfited only those wealthy congressman. How do you fix that? People who are leading a society that are run not by their intellect, but by biology. (Self interest, self importance and greed.)
> They have and will never seek knowledge of equality, fairness, because you need a scientific mind for that, drift off in to that state of absent mindedness, gather your thoughts and observations, then struggle with it; the mind has to be in a pure innocent state, it may not be possible for the majority of politicians. If you can do this you will find something closer to the truth.
>
> Maybe a few of them may question and find an answer. What does it mean about me and my congressional colleagues ? It means we are motivated at a simple biological level
> therefore I share something with pond scum.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 18:07:11 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> How do we nurture more intellects?
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Monday, August 21, 2017 3:21 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> We do not blame our biological patterns but we see them for what they are, we contemplate then reflect if they are harmful to ourselves or others, then we attempt some change. Do something that breaks up your static patterns by using your intellect, by contemplating and reflecting to come up with some good ideas. If you unknowingly ate some bad meat, you would almost certainly throw up, this is quality in your biological system, it has value. It would be immoral for humanity that just because we ate bad meat we should die. There was some sort of evolution in our past, a dynamic quality that allow us to eat bad meat, not process it but get rid of it quickly.
> If your biological static patterns rule rather than your intellect intervening at times, society has constructed prisons for that.
> If society has hidden rules that abuse a group of individuals our intellect should act on this because it has knowledge of fairness and equality.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Mon, 21 Aug 2017 12:07:52 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> So the separation of our selves into biological and intellectual I think is another sign that there is a missing link somewhere.
>
> The beauty of the MOQ is its unifying simplicity. It gives a framework by which we can better understand the world across all mediums be they scientific, spiritual or artistic. But it doesn’t give us an equally simplified framework as to how to apply it in our daily lives.
>
> We can understand MOQ deeply and yet still struggle to apply it in our daily lives, wrestling with the biological, the intellectual and other states of mind that each of us have to varying degrees.
>
> The fact that even Pirsig/Phaedrus’ character succumbs to his biological state more often than not is some proof to this element of human nature.
>
> In a nutshell, I think blaming the biological part of ourselves is a bit of a cop-out. As MOQ states, everything comes back to and is sourced from quality. To then apply this to ourselves but then give exceptions for this or that state of mind when we step out of high quality states dissipates the MOQ’s powerful framework.
>
> What is needed is not only a framework for understanding relationships of all things, but also a framework for the specific application of that to human beings. Personally, I think what makes humans unique from all other subjects beyond our awareness of our own various states, is our ability to direct and control our actions. Our ability to manifest intent into physical reality and thus influence quality. We want to create a race car, we can channel our intent towards that. We want to create an atomic bomb, we can do that, too. We want to land on the moon? Etc etc.
>
> I think breaking down the driving force behind these actions into states is similar to seeing the reality as a classical/romantic duality. It misses the forest through the trees. Instead we should focus on the driving force itself particularly as it relates to human beings. And that, to me, is intent.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 9:21 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> We are biological beings along with having that ability to go into that intellectual state, the innocent seeking state. Feynman talked about that state of seeking struggling, often. You are trying to find an answer, not trying to manipulate the answer to what you want it to be. Trying to find the truth of your observations is this it or what is it the same state of mind Pirsig spent most of his life in, this detached state waiting for enlightenment, extremely logical and rational.
>
> However the biological part of all of us is irrational, not logical, easily manipulated. Persig talks about his biological side, a drunkard whoring all the time. It needs self importance, is self interested , pleasure seeking, meeting with Robert Redford and his thoughts after we're biological ego driven. Our jealosies, greed, anger, hate, arrogance and revenge. They are emotional states that are from our biological selves, they manipulate and are easily manipulated.
>
> It was remember Pearl Harbor , Dresden , and all the evil the axis had inflicted on the world. It was an Irrational and illogical decision to seek revenge on innocent civilians, Feynman's biological side was duped. Later when his contemplative and reflective side, sought after the truth of what he participated in he had his nervous breakdown. Is it an act of value, to see how much energy is released when you split the atoms in a small bit of matter. Is it possible that it could be used as a deterrent to war? If you have developed a strong deterrent to war , is that not ethical. But to hand it over to biologically driven politicians and what they did with it was immoral and a human disaster.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 17:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Good points! I agree. But question, Richard Feynman strikes me as someone who often did exhibit dynamic quality (bongo player, creator, traveler, introspective thinker). But in this case, if he experienced dynamic quality while creating the bomb, should he have quit despite that on moral grounds knowing that those who had the decision making power to use it very well were not reflective and Pirsig-like? Is this a dilemma that puts morality and quality at odds?
>
> To what extent should Richard Feynman contemplate the usage of his quality work and creations?
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 5:11 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> Just one thing there is a difference between, information and knowledge. A person may have memorized all that they need to know, and receive a degree. Yet they have never gone into that state of absent mindedness and sought to discover things on their own like Persig frequently did. There is no such thing as a boastful intellect. There is only a boastful biological person.
>
> Richard Feynman was a physicist on the Manhatten project, After they dropped the bomb, in contemplation and reflection he had a nervous breakdown because he was part of the death and destruction. The people in charge of dropping the bomb, were non-contemplators and reflective people. There were no Robert Persigs, in that group.
>
> A person who has a few university degree's means that they have memorized the information required to obtain a degree. That's it. That does not make them an intellectual.
>
> Using your intellect requires an objective scientific approach, gather thoughts and information struggle with it for days looking for associations for what it's purpose is. Maybe struggle for
> weeks, then you may get an epiphany like Pirsig. When you have a strong feeling of your ideas relevance that's the conclusion of your intellect. It is original, and becomes part of you. People with university degrees voicing their opinions from what they memorized in school, is not being intellectual, nothing original will be discovered, it is static ,there will not be a dynamic quality decision that comes out of it.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sun, 20 Aug 2017 14:16:06 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Agree humans can be both taught to love and taught to hate. Even more reason that it is such a shame the concept of quality is not more accepted.
>
> Without quality, we presume an interaction is negative because the object of our interaction has something inherently wrong or unsavory, like the example of the boastful intellect. With quality, we can step back and understand and reflect that it is our unique relationship with this object that creates a low feeling of quality. And this we are less prone to generalize and extrapolate from single interactions or experiences.
>
> But then how do we reconcile this an understanding of quality with equality and morals?
>
> We can have greater clarity as to the nature of our relationships with things but then how do we channel this?
>
> The question of morality and quality brings to mind the Manhattan project. Undoubtedly the men and women of that group were invested in their work, many of the greatest and most creative scientific minds of that generation. They channeled their quality relationship with science and the laws of nature to create the greatest weapon of human history. How are we to judge the morality of this act even if we presume the creation of it was a result of high quality work?
>
> For me this is a gap in pirsigs work and what I have personally though a lot about. The separation of static and dynamic or the hierarchies of quality do not satisfactorily strike at the heart of this conundrum. Interested in everyone's thoughts.
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2017 2:50 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Thanks for the reply Andrew;
>
> Returning back to your first post Andrew, the US versus THEM mentality. It was never with Pirsig US, (Robert Redford the celebrity actor and Robert Pirsig the celebrity author) and the THEM people like Lila.
>
> None of us are born with any knowledge of equality and respect. On the other hand humans are naturally biological beings full of self importance, self interest, reacting emotionally with jealousy and greed. Someone may give us information on equality and respect, we may even parrot it back when it suits or purpose, however still we have no knowledge of it.
>
> Now take a scientific approach to understanding equality andrespect, look at it from an objective unbiased point of view. Gather your thoughts and observations then struggle with it defining what it is or is not, place yourself on the giving and receiving end of it, struggle with it some more, introduce some contradictions. Leave it sit for a day or two then go back analyze it to a high degree like Pirsig. Some very strong lights come on, it has made us a bit more humble, yet we experienced small epiphanies like Pirsig.
>
> Now that's an intellectual discovery, the same way a musician discovers a new song, or a researcher discovers a new drug. It's personal and original. A month later you may be around someone who tells you how marvellous he really is, and underhandedly making suggestions that he is so much smarter than you. It subjects us to a low quality event meeting someone like that, boasting from his biological self we can see that his intellect has not moved.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Sat, 19 Aug 2017 23:55:13 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hey Wes, good to meet you.
>
> So it’s interesting, I actually thought Lila was inconclusive in its ending. I know the core of the book is meant to explore quality and its implications with respect to morality. And in that his effort to do what was best for Lila, Pirsig seemed to offer a conclusive end at first glance.
>
> However, personally I think, while it was a necessary next step following ZAMM, Pirsig’s conflation of morality and quality is what made Lila a weaker piece.
>
> The core question to me relates to that of human intent. Did he do what he did with a creative intent or a consumptive intent? That is the critical question in my mind.
>
> Recall that in ZAMM, Pirsig deploys an untrustworthy narrator to an expert degree (he has said that Phaedrus is actually the hero of the story and the narrator is in fact the ghost). Perhaps, unbeknownst to us, Lila is a similar work, where the entire treatise is a giant rationalization for Pirsig’s effort to capture Lila for his own.
>
> The fact that he made an effort to challenge Rigel and save her in his own mind is moral by any common standard, but morality, like quality itself, is in the eye of the beholder, and as we all are human, we know that what is in the mind and in the eye is not always reflective of what is in the heart.
>
> I would prefer to put aside the concept of morality for the moment and consider the most basic delineation of any human action. Is it either done with creative intent or consumptive intent, i.e. are you seeking to invest yourself into something to create something greater than the sum of the parts or are you looking to extract something from the world for your own benefit or pleasure? The same exact action, take the challenging of Rigel for instance, can take on wildly different implications given a differing intent of the subject. It’s very difficult to observe at the moment of the action, but I think human experience and history shows us that the cumulative consequences of seemingly similar actions taken with divergent intents ultimately show great disparity, i.e. actions cumulatively taken with extreme consumptive intent, over time, generally resemble what most would refer to as morally evil, whereas actions cumulative taken with creative intent, generally resemble what most cultures would refer to as morally good.
>
> I wonder then, if Lila saw something that we the reader were not privy to. Perhaps, she saw that despite all of Phaedrus’ noble rationalization, he still ultimately wanted what every other John wanted in her past. And thus she chose Rigel, because at least there was no pretense about what he was or why he did what he did.
>
>
> From: WES STEWART
> Sent: Saturday, August 19, 2017 5:41 PM
> To: moq discuss
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello Andrew,
>
> I am new here too, found out about the site a few days ago. I use to be on Demings quality management Linked-in discussion group.
>
> Thanks for the post! Pursig had stated our ability to reason; contemplative and reflective thought is at the top of the MOQ. This is what can bring change to a culture or society. He also stated morality and quality are the same thing; this is similar to William Edwards Deming. The owner of an organization must have quality inside his character, in order to be capable of providing a quality product or service.
>
> In Lila towards the end; when Lila has her epiphany clutching the rubber doll, Pursig takes on what he feels is his moral responsibility to look after Lila for the rest of her life. Even when Rigel shows up offering to take her away, Pursig challenges him, knowing it is not in Lilas best interest. His life without Lila
> would be much easier is what his biological self would urge; however his morality and quality of character have been built through his intellect.
>
> Pursig had empathy with Lila knowing what she was probably going to face.
> Pursig was always in an inner struggle trying to make sense or find purpose in the world. He knew who he was and was trying to make the world his students lived in a better quality atmosphere in which to learn, he abandoned grading at Bozeman. Deming spoke openly as a University professor , that no one ever fails his class , everyone gets a passing grade.
>
> Quality in a human being is all about character. I agree with you, bigger houses, more diplomas, expensive cars, boats and other toys have nothing to do with a quality human being. It was in Pursig when he decided to do what's best for Lila, look after her for the rest of her life. He strongly interceded against Rigel taking her but was over ruled by Lila.
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Andrew Chu <***@gmail.com>
> To: moq discuss <***@lists.moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2017 21:24:07 -0600 (MDT)
> Subject: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hello all,
>
> My name is Andrew and I came across this site after re-visiting Zen recently. Zen was, without a doubt, the book that has made the most formative impact on my own personal philosophies and values.
>
> So I’m not sure who else is still active, but figured it was worth reaching out.
>
> It seems to me that the world today could benefit greatly from a broader understanding of Quality.
>
> The fundamental framework that qualities are intrinsic in things, peoples, cultures is driving more and more swaths of humanity apart. Your quality is determined by where you live, what car you drive, what language you speak, the color of your hair, the religion you practice, the party you voted for. These are all driven by the simple humanistic tendency to make sense of the world by creating symbolic representations of disparate pieces of data and observations. However, without an understanding of the nature of quality, these simple models have in many ways *become* the world. The representations have become the reality.
>
> And that’s a problem.
>
> The simple acknowledgement that quality exists within the relationship between things, encompassing both the subjective and the objective nature of our individual experiences, could give people the freedom to feel comfort in their own perspective on the world while also understanding that that relationship is unique to them and might not be shared equally by others. It could give us the opportunity to start breaking down some of the increasingly prevalent Us vs Them dichotomies we see in the world.
>
> Anyhow, I hope this finds everyone well. I look forward to engaging in dialogues about all things Quality.
>
> Sincerely,
> Andrew
>
>
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[Dan Glover]

Hi Wes,

Partial eclipses are interesting, yes. What I saw blew me away. I am
still in awe. I've been on about it ever since I got back telling
everyone how they've got to go see the next total eclipse. Which they
won't, of course. On account of having to work, probably. I think
that's pretty much a shame. Several people've hung their heads and
said: boy. I shoulda gone too. Yep. Sorta like my dear old da telling
me on his deathbed he could now see how he never had to work so much
like he did. Of the ballgames and picnics and vacations he missed. All
on account of working.

And this isn't about the eclipse but rather life in general. How we
tend to paint ourselves into corners and are for the most part content
to stay there. Working at jobs we cannot put our all into in order to
bring home the all-mighty paycheck. Marking time while another day
another week another month another year goes by and here we are.

You want to reduce heart disease and cancer? Get off your ass and do
something. No. Not about health care. About yourself. Hey. We're all
going to die. But that doesn't mean we need go passively. It's like
those people I saw driving down the road with their headlights on and
a total eclipse right over their heads. They're hiding, searching for
someone else to take responsibility. Waiting for someone to tell them
who they are. What to do. Why they're here. Looking to politicians.
Corporations. Doctors. But that crap's on us. As individuals.

So... tonight I saw the crescent moon in the west at twilight and I
said hey! Last time I saw you you were lounging over the face of the
sun! Those moments, we need to watch for them. Because they never come
round again.

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:53 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> Thanks for your input. I agree information and knowledge are not the same thing. People had the information on an eclipse but had no knowledge of it. I I was working and not in an area of totality but made a pinhole viewer, from two sheets of paper and saw the quarter moon shape. The latitude and longitude where I was at only 70% covered , but it was still interesting to see.
>
> The philosophers, Montaigne, Bacon and Locke agreed that any attempts to transmit information derived from other people was just a rumor, and does not constitute knowledge unless it has been tested by personal experience. What is the information or the current narrative? Good quality health care, however medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the US, behind heart disease and cancer. So what does it mean an organization states they have good quality health care when it is a systemic problem. We have the latest narrative or information about health care but no knowledge of that.
>
> We have the latest information or narrative from societies leaders, such as politicians and corporate upper management, but do we have knowledge of what is actually happening? Even though this static pattern of healthcare does have some quality in it, there has to be some dynamic quality, or change to reduce the death rate.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 1:00:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Great discussion!
>
> Hey. Just an aside. Maybe. But maybe not. I just got back from viewing
> the eclipse. First time I ever've seen totality. Had to check what I
> was drinking for if someone'd slipped LSD into it or maybe diced up
> psilocybin mushrooms on that breakfast burrito I had earlier. Took off
> work and drove 400 miles for a totality lasting 2 minutes 40 seconds
> and I'd do it again tomorrow were there another. Mindblowing.
> Completely mindblowing.
>
> See, intellectually I knew exactly what an eclipse is. I knew what to
> expect. But to witness that mofo... that was an experience. People've
> asked me oh did it get dark and did you see stars and did the crickets
> start into chirping and yes to all but Jesus God there were people
> driving past me at the same moment the moon was blocking out the sun
> and their headlights were on and but they never even pulled over to
> look. And they were right there. Right there.
>
> One of the people I was with said hey it's because we're in Missouri.
> And he wasn't joking. More, though, leading up to the eclipse I kept
> getting nasty messages on Facebook saying: "am I the only one not
> going to the eclipse?" And people are agreeing. Oh yeah. Big waste of
> time, that. I'm not going. As if it is somehow okay to be jaded. No.
> Expected. How one of the wonders of the world is right there above our
> heads and we're too busy or too adultish or too know-it-all to take
> the time and watch and those of us who do revel in the experience are
> dullishly off-kilter, worthy of putdowns.
>
> I'm not much into politics. The wheel turns. Now is the time for
> stupid people to rule. That'll pass as it always does. If you accept
> the basic tenet of the MOQ, that quality and morality are identical,
> then you might also see how what's better is driving evolution on all
> four levels. And what's better doesn't necessarily mean intellect
> always rules. I read this article about how birds what live along
> roadways are evolving shorter wingspans. That doesn't presuppose as
> some would have it an intelligent being overseeing such happenings nor
> is it a matter of chance. Rather, birds with long wingspans are unable
> to fly away quickly enough and are killed by cars thus unable to
> propagate. Short wings are better.
>
> There are so many ah ha moments in life which we gloss over.
> Especially should things not fit with our preconceived notion of the
> world and our place in it. If the MOQ teaches us anything, it should
> be to wake up. To be there. To give our attention to what is right in
> front of us instead of forever planning for tomorrow.
>
> Anyway...
>


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[WES STEWART]

Hello Dan;

Agreed if someone asked me about knowledge about how to within 2 minutes build a partial eclipse viewer with what you have in a car?
I would be their man. If someone asked what is it like to view an actual eclipse, Dan Glover is the only one to have actual experience
of that event in our group so respond to him.



From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
Sent: Thursday, August 24, 2017 9:53:10 PM
Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality

Hi Wes,

Partial eclipses are interesting, yes. What I saw blew me away. I am
still in awe. I've been on about it ever since I got back telling
everyone how they've got to go see the next total eclipse. Which they
won't, of course. On account of having to work, probably. I think
that's pretty much a shame. Several people've hung their heads and
said: boy. I shoulda gone too. Yep. Sorta like my dear old da telling
me on his deathbed he could now see how he never had to work so much
like he did. Of the ballgames and picnics and vacations he missed. All
on account of working.

And this isn't about the eclipse but rather life in general. How we
tend to paint ourselves into corners and are for the most part content
to stay there. Working at jobs we cannot put our all into in order to
bring home the all-mighty paycheck. Marking time while another day
another week another month another year goes by and here we are.

You want to reduce heart disease and cancer? Get off your ass and do
something. No. Not about health care. About yourself. Hey. We're all
going to die. But that doesn't mean we need go passively. It's like
those people I saw driving down the road with their headlights on and
a total eclipse right over their heads. They're hiding, searching for
someone else to take responsibility. Waiting for someone to tell them
who they are. What to do. Why they're here. Looking to politicians.
Corporations. Doctors. But that crap's on us. As individuals.

So... tonight I saw the crescent moon in the west at twilight and I
said hey! Last time I saw you you were lounging over the face of the
sun! Those moments, we need to watch for them. Because they never come
round again.

On Tue, Aug 22, 2017 at 12:53 PM, WES STEWART <***@shaw.ca> wrote:
> Hello Dan;
>
> Thanks for your input. I agree information and knowledge are not the same thing. People had the information on an eclipse but had no knowledge of it. I I was working and not in an area of totality but made a pinhole viewer, from two sheets of paper and saw the quarter moon shape. The latitude and longitude where I was at only 70% covered , but it was still interesting to see.
>
> The philosophers, Montaigne, Bacon and Locke agreed that any attempts to transmit information derived from other people was just a rumor, and does not constitute knowledge unless it has been tested by personal experience. What is the information or the current narrative? Good quality health care, however medical errors are the third leading cause of death in the US, behind heart disease and cancer. So what does it mean an organization states they have good quality health care when it is a systemic problem. We have the latest narrative or information about health care but no knowledge of that.
>
> We have the latest information or narrative from societies leaders, such as politicians and corporate upper management, but do we have knowledge of what is actually happening? Even though this static pattern of healthcare does have some quality in it, there has to be some dynamic quality, or change to reduce the death rate.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> From: "Dan Glover" <***@gmail.com>
> To: "moq discuss" <***@moqtalk.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2017 1:00:04 AM
> Subject: Re: [MD] The need for quality
>
> Hi guys,
>
> Great discussion!
>
> Hey. Just an aside. Maybe. But maybe not. I just got back from viewing
> the eclipse. First time I ever've seen totality. Had to check what I
> was drinking for if someone'd slipped LSD into it or maybe diced up
> psilocybin mushrooms on that breakfast burrito I had earlier. Took off
> work and drove 400 miles for a totality lasting 2 minutes 40 seconds
> and I'd do it again tomorrow were there another. Mindblowing.
> Completely mindblowing.
>
> See, intellectually I knew exactly what an eclipse is. I knew what to
> expect. But to witness that mofo... that was an experience. People've
> asked me oh did it get dark and did you see stars and did the crickets
> start into chirping and yes to all but Jesus God there were people
> driving past me at the same moment the moon was blocking out the sun
> and their headlights were on and but they never even pulled over to
> look. And they were right there. Right there.
>
> One of the people I was with said hey it's because we're in Missouri.
> And he wasn't joking. More, though, leading up to the eclipse I kept
> getting nasty messages on Facebook saying: "am I the only one not
> going to the eclipse?" And people are agreeing. Oh yeah. Big waste of
> time, that. I'm not going. As if it is somehow okay to be jaded. No.
> Expected. How one of the wonders of the world is right there above our
> heads and we're too busy or too adultish or too know-it-all to take
> the time and watch and those of us who do revel in the experience are
> dullishly off-kilter, worthy of putdowns.
>
> I'm not much into politics. The wheel turns. Now is the time for
> stupid people to rule. That'll pass as it always does. If you accept
> the basic tenet of the MOQ, that quality and morality are identical,
> then you might also see how what's better is driving evolution on all
> four levels. And what's better doesn't necessarily mean intellect
> always rules. I read this article about how birds what live along
> roadways are evolving shorter wingspans. That doesn't presuppose as
> some would have it an intelligent being overseeing such happenings nor
> is it a matter of chance. Rather, birds with long wingspans are unable
> to fly away quickly enough and are killed by cars thus unable to
> propagate. Short wings are better.
>
> There are so many ah ha moments in life which we gloss over.
> Especially should things not fit with our preconceived notion of the
> world and our place in it. If the MOQ teaches us anything, it should
> be to wake up. To be there. To give our attention to what is right in
> front of us instead of forever planning for tomorrow.
>
> Anyway...
>


--
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