Discussion:
[MD] What the MOQ community can learn from the rise of the neoliberals
David Harding
2016-12-03 05:47:40 UTC
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Hi All,


To speak in dramatic tones - I do not want the MOQ to die and be written off to the history books as a nice idea never seriously considered. That said, it’s clear to me that a successful world is one which takes advantage of the ideas and language of the MOQ.


The Effective Altruism community (amongst others) is in a similar conundrum about how to become the common theory amongst intellectuals.


Here’s a nicely put together article on how the Neoliberals managed to go from fringe idea to being very powerful within 40 years.  The biggest advantage they had however, were that they had the ideas whose side money was on, whereas the MOQ has little to say directly about the allocation of capital.


Regardless, there’s a few ideas in there worth repeating.


https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ea-neoliberal/



Best,


djh
goodmetaphysics.com




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david
2016-12-04 00:55:52 UTC
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The MOQ has little to say directly about the allocation of capital?

There are some pretty direct comments about capitalism and its rivals in LILA. Pirsig talks about the political conflicts of the 20th century in terms of a conflict between social values and intellectual values. He defines socialism as intellectual and fascism as social by using concrete

historical examples. Here are some of the most relevant quotes from Pirsig followed by my reading of them:

"It's not that Victorian social economic patterns are more moral than socialist intellectual economic patterns. Quite the opposite. They are LESS moral as static patterns go. What makes the free-enterprise system superior is that the socialists, reasoning intelligently and objectively have inadvertently closed the door the DQ in the buying and selling of things. They closed it becasue the metaphysical structure of their objectivity never told them DQ exists." P221


"That's what neither the socialists NOR the capitalists ever got figured out. From a static point of view socialism is more moral than capitalism. It's a higher form of evolution. It's an intellectually guided society, not just a society that is guided by mindless traditions. That's what gives socialism its drive. But what the socialist left out and what has all but killed their whole undertaking is an absence of a concept of indefinite Dynamic Quality. ...On the other hand the conservatives who keep trumpeting about the virtues of free enterprise are normally just supporting their own self-interest. They are just doing the usual cover-up for the rich in their age-old exploitation of the poor. Some of them seem to sense there is also something mysteriously virtuous in a free enterprise system and you can see them struggling to put it into words but they don't have the metaphysical vocabulary for it any more than the socialists do." P220-221



"The hurricane of social forces released by the overthrow of [Victorian] society by intellect was most strongly felt in Europe, particularly in Germany, where the effects of WW1 were the most devastating. Communism and socialism, programs for intellectual control over society, were confronted by the reactionary forces of fascism, a program for the social control of intellect. ...Phaedrus thought that no other historical or political analysis explains the enormity of these forces as clearly as does the MOQ. The gigantic power of socialism and fascism, which have overwhelmed this century, is explained by a conflict of levels of evolution. This conflict explains the driving force behind Hitler not as an insane search for power but as an all-consuming glorification of social authority and hatred of intellectualism. His anti-Semitism was fueled by anti-intellectualism. His hatred of communists was fueled by anti-intellectualism. His exaltation of the German volk was fueled by it.
His fanatic persecution of any kind of intellectual freedom was driven by it." P274



"Now, it should be stated at this point that the MOQ SUPPORTS this dominance of intellect over society. It says intellect is a higher level of evolution than society: therefore, it is more moral moral level than society. It is better for an idea to destroy a society than it is for a society to destroy an idea. But having said this, the MOQ goes on to say that science, the intellectual patterns that has been appointed to take over society, has a defect in it. the defect is that subject-object science has no provision for morals." P277



"The end of the twentieth century in America seems to be an intellectual, social and economic rust-belt, a whole society that has given up on Dynamic improvement and is slowly trying to slip back to Victorianism, the last static ratchet-latch." -- From LILA Chapter 24:


"By the end of the '60s the intellectualism of the '20s found itself in an impossible trap. If it continued to advocate freedom from Victorian social restraint, all it would get was more Hippies, who were really just carrying its anti-Victorianism to an extreme. If, on the other hand, it advocated more constructive social conformity in opposition to the Hippies, all it would get was more Victorians, in the form of the reactionary right. This political whip-saw was invincible, and in 1968 it cut down one of the
last of the great intellectual liberal leaders of the New Deal Period. 'I've seen enough of this,' Humphrey exclaimed at the disasterous 1968 Democratic National convention, 'I've seen far too much of it!' But he had no explanation for it and no remedy and neither did anyone else. The great intellectual revolution of the first half of the 20th century, the dream of a 'Great Society' made humane by man's intellect, was killed, hoist on its own petard of freedom from social restraint."
-- LILA, chapter 24, P301-302

And if there is any doubt about where Pirsig himself stands there's a line on page 306 in which, "Phaedrus remembered parties in the fifties and sixties full liberal intellectuals like himself".


And more fully, thanks to Anthony McWatt, we also have Pirsig speaking to Tim Wilson and David Chernick for CBC Radio's "New Ideas" Series, 1975: 'I was very sympathetic to the rebellion of the Sixties because I'd gone through a very similar rebellion [in the Fifties]. My father couldn't understand what it was that made me insist; well, not insist, but feel that I had to get out of this country or go crazy. It - the whole idea - this was back in 1950 - the whole idea that one should become another Ronald Reagan and move up ahead - not Ronald Reagan himself but the roles that he played as the all-American good guy; lives the happy, suburban life - was so expected of people that anyone who felt that was inadequate was regarded as
suspicious, or at least a person with deep personal problems. The fact that the problems might be the problems of the culture rather than the problems of the individual would never have dawned on anybody back in the Fifties.'


As I read the political world, neoliberalism took center stage with Thatcher and Reagan and every American President since then has embraced neoliberalism. This perspective is also known as free-market economics, trickle down economics, supply side economics, right-wing libertarian economics and other such terms. The basic idea is to acknowledge the social problems that socialism aims to solve (poverty, inequality, injustice) but to address these concerns with "free-market" solutions. You see this in the Affordable Care Act, a.k.a. ObamaCare. The GOP has fought it every step of the way and still plan to repeal it but the plan was developed at the Heritage Foundation back in the '90s, a conservative, free-market "think tank", and was offered by the GOP back then as an alternative to a New Deal type of single payer, government run medical insurance program. And that's what neo-liberalism has been doing for the past 40 years or so, dismantling and preventing New Deal Liberalism.
That's what Bernie Sanders was selling, New Deal Liberalism, that quasi-socialist democratic socialism of the '30s, '40s, '50s, and '60s. And it was a very popular message, as we all saw, and I'm pretty sure it's because everybody knows on some level that they have been screwed by neoliberalism. That's also why Trump won the election, I think. Bernie and Trump are two very different answers to the same question and that question is "how can we get rid of neoliberals like the Clintons, like the Bushes, like Reagan and Obama?" Bernie was the intellectual level option (socialism) and Trump was the social values option (fascism).


That's probably enough to ponder.

Thanks for your time,

dmb


________________________________
From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-***@lists.moqtalk.org> on behalf of David Harding <***@goodmetaphysics.com>
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 10:47 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: [MD] What the MOQ community can learn from the rise of the neoliberals

Hi All,


To speak in dramatic tones - I do not want the MOQ to die and be written off to the history books as a nice idea never seriously considered. That said, it's clear to me that a successful world is one which takes advantage of the ideas and language of the MOQ.


The Effective Altruism community (amongst others) is in a similar conundrum about how to become the common theory amongst intellectuals.


Here's a nicely put together article on how the Neoliberals managed to go from fringe idea to being very powerful within 40 years. The biggest advantage they had however, were that they had the ideas whose side money was on, whereas the MOQ has little to say directly about the allocation of capital.


Regardless, there's a few ideas in there worth repeating.


https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ea-neoliberal/



Best,


djh
goodmetaphysics.com




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David Harding
2016-12-04 02:19:41 UTC
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djh wrote:
The MOQ has little to say directly about the allocation of capital.




dmb wrote: 
As I read the political world, neoliberalism took center stage with Thatcher and Reagan and every American President since then has embraced neoliberalism. This perspective is also known as free-market economics, trickle down economics, supply side economics, right-wing libertarian economics and other such terms. The basic idea is to acknowledge the social problems that socialism aims to solve (poverty, inequality, injustice) but to address these concerns with "free-market" solutions. You see this in the Affordable Care Act, a.k.a. ObamaCare. The GOP has fought it every step of the way and still plan to repeal it but the plan was developed at the Heritage Foundation back in the '90s, a conservative, free-market "think tank", and was offered by the GOP back then as an alternative to a New Deal type of single payer, government run medical insurance program. And that's what neo-liberalism has been doing for the past 40 years or so, dismantling and preventing New Deal Liberalism.
That's what Bernie Sanders was selling, New Deal Liberalism, that quasi-socialist democratic socialism of the '30s, '40s, '50s, and '60s. And it was a very popular message, as we all saw, and I'm pretty sure it's because everybody knows on some level that they have been screwed by neoliberalism. That's also why Trump won the election, I think. Bernie and Trump are two very different answers to the same question and that question is "how can we get rid of neoliberals like the Clintons, like the Bushes, like Reagan and Obama?" Bernie was the intellectual level option (socialism) and Trump was the social values option (fascism).





djh reponds:

Nary a word here I disagree with.  By directly I mean to say that the MOQ is a new Metaphysical language.  A language which can indeed be used to say the above and which is unrivalled in its Metaphysics eloquence saying so - but a language that can say all sorts of things (however well or poorly) nonetheless.   


RMP’s biggest regret is that the MOQ can be mistaken as the answer to all things. Indeed it is easy to presume that the MOQ is directly saying the above. It isn’t - it’s just a new language that can help us make a whole bunch of things more clear and enables us to discuss things which were previously near impossible to discuss (Or if they were possible libraries worth of books to ensure we’re on the same page).


Perhaps this original line of mine required the above clarification.  I’m sure you already know that I agreed with what you wrote above.  Same goes for your sentence below which also requires some clarification.  I’m pretty sure you don’t mean exactly what’s written here either - but can you explain to be sure?


“I’m pretty sure it’s because everybody knows on some level that they have been screwed by neoliberalism.”


Thanks,


djh.
goodmetaphysics.com


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david
2016-12-04 05:54:35 UTC
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djh said: ... I’m pretty sure you don’t mean exactly what’s written here either - but can you explain to be sure? -->“I’m pretty sure it’s because everybody knows on some level that they have been screwed by neoliberalism.”


dmb replies: I mean to say that the US election season exposed a revolt against neoliberalism, and it doesn't matter if those revolutionaries ever heard the word "neo-liberalism" or not. They just know it ain't working for 'em and they're tired of bullshit promises. Plain and simple. It really is true on that level too. But then along comes the demagogue to tell 'em it ain't working 'cause of Mexicans and the Chinese. But he's kinda right about the trade deals, which is neoliberalism. He was right to shame Hillary for her cozy relations with Wall Street, which is neoliberalism. But the gold-plated billionaire is not the champion of the working man, of course. That's a ridiculous con job but he pulled it off. They been had, they got got, hoodwinked and swindled.

And we'll all pay the price. Orange Hitler will be in charge of the U.S. military, nukes and all. Even worse? Almost half of the US population is just fine with that.


Sigh.



________________________________
From: Moq_Discuss <moq_discuss-***@lists.moqtalk.org> on behalf of David Harding <***@goodmetaphysics.com>
Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 7:19 PM
To: ***@moqtalk.org
Subject: Re: [MD] What the MOQ community can learn from the rise of the neoliberals

djh wrote:
The MOQ has little to say directly about the allocation of capital.




dmb wrote:
As I read the political world, neoliberalism took center stage with Thatcher and Reagan and every American President since then has embraced neoliberalism. This perspective is also known as free-market economics, trickle down economics, supply side economics, right-wing libertarian economics and other such terms. The basic idea is to acknowledge the social problems that socialism aims to solve (poverty, inequality, injustice) but to address these concerns with "free-market" solutions. You see this in the Affordable Care Act, a.k.a. ObamaCare. The GOP has fought it every step of the way and still plan to repeal it but the plan was developed at the Heritage Foundation back in the '90s, a conservative, free-market "think tank", and was offered by the GOP back then as an alternative to a New Deal type of single payer, government run medical insurance program. And that's what neo-liberalism has been doing for the past 40 years or so, dismantling and preventing New Deal Liberalism.
That's what Bernie Sanders was selling, New Deal Liberalism, that quasi-socialist democratic socialism of the '30s, '40s, '50s, and '60s. And it was a very popular message, as we all saw, and I'm pretty sure it's because everybody knows on some level that they have been screwed by neoliberalism. That's also why Trump won the election, I think. Bernie and Trump are two very different answers to the same question and that question is "how can we get rid of neoliberals like the Clintons, like the Bushes, like Reagan and Obama?" Bernie was the intellectual level option (socialism) and Trump was the social values option (fascism).





djh reponds:

Nary a word here I disagree with. By directly I mean to say that the MOQ is a new Metaphysical language. A language which can indeed be used to say the above and which is unrivalled in its Metaphysics eloquence saying so - but a language that can say all sorts of things (however well or poorly) nonetheless.


RMP’s biggest regret is that the MOQ can be mistaken as the answer to all things. Indeed it is easy to presume that the MOQ is directly saying the above. It isn’t - it’s just a new language that can help us make a whole bunch of things more clear and enables us to discuss things which were previously near impossible to discuss (Or if they were possible libraries worth of books to ensure we’re on the same page).


Perhaps this original line of mine required the above clarification. I’m sure you already know that I agreed with what you wrote above. Same goes for your sentence below which also requires some clarification. I’m pretty sure you don’t mean exactly what’s written here either - but can you explain to be sure?


“I’m pretty sure it’s because everybody knows on some level that they have been screwed by neoliberalism.”


Thanks,


djh.
goodmetaphysics.com


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David Harding
2016-12-04 07:22:32 UTC
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dmb wrote:
And we'll all pay the price. Orange Hitler will be in charge of the U.S. military, nukes and all. Even worse? Almost half of the US population is just fine with that.



djh replies:
Yep agree.  But I think the people who it’s under-appreciated have their share of the blame are those intellectuals who sold out to the moneyed (social influence) interests.  Usually not thought so much as immoral but the MOQ shows just how immoral this act is.  


Just last night someone tweeted at me this recent article:


https://www.propublica.org/article/these-professors-make-more-than-thousand-bucks-hour-peddling-mega-mergers




Departments of economics in most of the top universities are apparently mostly now overrun by such rich and powerful neoliberals.


Which brings us full circle to the power of the neoliberals and how they got there to being with. Once again I point to the original article (https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ea-neoliberal
/) and ask your thoughts on some of their non-money reliant tactics?


Thanks,


djh.
goodmetaphysics.com
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Jan Anders Andersson
2016-12-04 12:43:01 UTC
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Well, MOQ’ers, the answer to the question about if a trust is bad and competion is good for the consumer should not be based on prejudice.

Competion is war between corporations and merge is peace made by negotiation. The prejudice that a low price is good for the consumer leads to overconsumption of goods and duties and a planet full of waste. My advice is to put the perspective point outside the whole planet. Then we will able to see that resources are scarce. If a world trust, like Oil companies for example, should be able to put a long term stable prize on oil where the consumer value is considered, we shouldn’t have burnt half of the oil resources in one single century. The air would have been cleaner and horses have a higher value and a happier life. Just as an example.

Nations are not corporations. I’ve seen many people vote for Trump becuse they think he’s a good leader for a corporation and by that he should be a good leader for the US. Nothing could be more wrong. A business can solve problems in ways that are impossible for a nation. A nation can’t fire people that doesn’t put an economic value to the nation for example. (Yes, the nazis had no problem with that). The free market of a nation does not exist inside a company. A company is dictated by command from the board and the CEO to avoid sub-optimization. Running the economy of a nation by command is what the communists try to do.

Market economists (neoliberals and others) and command economists (communists, dictators and Marxists), both parties never discuss the foundations for Price. Still price is the foundation for all economic decisions and every single calculation. Every excel-sheet is based on faith in price as holy matter.

A free market consist of FREE decisions by BOTH the seller and the buyer. If the price to distribute is higher than the buyers Value, then there will not be a deal. If the seller can’t get a profit from the deal he will not sell. Every trade is an agreement by a seller and a buyer, where both think that they will benefit from the trade. The seller has a calculated price where the costs are lower than the price which normally leads to a profit, while the buyer will buy if the price is lower than the Value of the good or duty, leading to a higher standard of life. Cheapness is the leading word here. Cheapness is the modern religion practiced at the shopping mall temples. Most of you experience this several times a day.

The economic yield of a nation is the total sum of both the profits from the seller AND the rise of consumer standard. Please notice that today GNP is only calculated by the sellers revenue and profit, while consumer Value is not included. Ricardo and Marx, by other’s, totally ignored the consumer value as the incentive for the buying part. Generally speaking, the consumer incentive to buy, should statistically be at the same volume as the sellers incentive to get a profit. If you take a look at Cost-benefit analysis this line for consumer Value and benefit at the figures is always missing. Emphasis is always put on the sellers benefit and incentive to sell. Not one consider the buyers incentive to buy.

Therefore, monopolys and trusts should NOT cause damage to consumers in the long run. An oil trust for example, can not put a too high price on oil because that would lead to too small consumer values and too few deals.

The base for consumer values should be discussed at the intellectual level and not by unconscious feelings. When the discussion of consumer value and Price is elevated up to the intellectual level based on prudent agreements between consumer organizations and Trusts, instead of this price war on the "free unconscious market” then we will see a new time of world economy that better correspond with the MOQ. Will it be implemented by Bernie Sanders?

all the best

Jan-Anders Andersson



> 4 dec 2016 x kl. 08:22 skrev David Harding <***@goodmetaphysics.com>:
>
> dmb wrote:
> And we'll all pay the price. Orange Hitler will be in charge of the U.S. military, nukes and all. Even worse? Almost half of the US population is just fine with that.
>
>
>
> djh replies:
> Yep agree. But I think the people who it’s under-appreciated have their share of the blame are those intellectuals who sold out to the moneyed (social influence) interests. Usually not thought so much as immoral but the MOQ shows just how immoral this act is.
>
>
> Just last night someone tweeted at me this recent article:
>
>
> https://www.propublica.org/article/these-professors-make-more-than-thousand-bucks-hour-peddling-mega-mergers
>
>
>
>
> Departments of economics in most of the top universities are apparently mostly now overrun by such rich and powerful neoliberals.
>
>
> Which brings us full circle to the power of the neoliberals and how they got there to being with. Once again I point to the original article (https://www.effectivealtruism.org/ea-neoliberal
> /) and ask your thoughts on some of their non-money reliant tactics?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> djh.
> goodmetaphysics.com
>>
> Moq_Discuss mailing list
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